Another enlightened parent fail

[drwex]

I'm about ready to throw in the towel on another of my enlightened parenting experiments. It goes something like this:

In our household, the children don't get an allowance. Instead they have a few mandatory chores, mostly to do with self-care (do homework, clean own room, pack lunch, get dressed, brush teeth/hair, etc) for which they can earn small monetary rewards. To handle the larger chores, which I was routinely assigned as a child, I figured a voluntary system would work better. The kids can choose to do some laundry task or dishes task, or help take out the trash or do some yardwork and are paid when they do so. I remind them that such opportunities are available, and hold off doing some things with the timeliness I would like in order to give them time to complete the chore in their own way. In theory this is a better system, giving the kids more options and fewer demands.

As you can probably guess, this has descended into utter failure. Even though I remind them that they have many chances to earn money for things they want (a new D.S., a copy of Civ V of their own - yes I'm evil and hook my kids on videogames; are you surprised?) the kids don't take the time to earn money when reminded. We've also tried the option of "natural consequences" - when they didn't want to do the laundry for a couple weeks they found that they lacked for clean socks and underwear. This led to complaining, of course, and parents repeatedly reminding them that not only did they have many opportunities to do the laundry we would even pay them for it. No dice.

The enlightened parent way: offer choices, give rewards for effort, provide encouragement and reminders, avoid penalties and punishments, associate tasks with rewards the kids find meaningful, and allow natural rather than artificial consequences. This, my friends, is bullshit. It Does Not Work. No, seriously. I get that there are some extraordinary kids out there for whom this kind of thing works. Parents of those kids write books gushing about the virtues of their enlightened parenting methods and their angelic offspring. I now wish to find each and every such parent and smack them for writing such books. And now back to reality.

In my reality I'm thinking strongly about going back to an allowance/chore system. The kids would get a fixed amount per week and would be assigned chores such as dishes, trash, and laundry on some kind of rotating system. I suppose it would be nice to leave in place some kind of upside so they can earn more money, but I expect them to ignore it. Also because I'm not a completely heartless bastard I probably won't include major chores like yardwork/shoveling and might allow them to swap chores around.

But since I'm a STUBBORN bastard I figured I'd see if anyone had any suggestions for things I hadn't tried because I want to claim I explored every possible cooperative avenue before I impose this system on the kids top-down. Of course I plan to warn them that this is coming and give them time to adjust to the upcoming change; but this morning's episode where the kids ignored the counter stacked high with dishes so they could just put their (unrinsed) dirty dishes on the top of the stack for someone else to wash was kind of the breaking point.

Comments

[pierceheart.livejournal.com]

I have never been a parent.

Do what you are planning on doing, giving them an allowance and set chores, and have a downside factored in - things don't get done, they lose pay.

[caulay.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that.

Of course, I grew up with chores and no pay. If I wanted money, I had to find my own job (paperboy).

[ahf.livejournal.com]

I know they did get it for a while. The day I was over a few months ago, they were writing a letter to the town selectmen about the trash someone had strewn all over the side of the road. L pointed out that in a way it was good for them. When I asked why, he explained that picking up the trash earned them money and that if someone left trash every week they could get X (whatever thing they were after, I forget what) sooner.

[missionista.livejournal.com]

What about separating chores from allowance entirely? I grew up having chores. I also grew up getting an allowance. The two were separate things.

The allowance was more for me to learn about ways of handling money, and only came about because I saw it on TV, and asked if I could have one. The allowance was really small, too--25 cents per week when I was 7--so it was enough to get concepts like saving, spending, etc., but not enough that withholding it would be a true punishment for not doing chores.

The chores were because everyone has to do chores, end of story.

[badseed1980.livejournal.com]

That's kind of the way it was for me in my family. Generally, we were only asked to pick up after ourselves during the week, and to put away our laundry after my mom took it out of the dryer. On weekends, the whole family would divide up the chores involved in cleaning the house. Someone took the bathroom, someone dusted, someone vaccumed, etc. We all worked at it at the same time. Also, when I got a Walkman, I found that listening to music while I did my chores made it more pleasant. Maybe your kids could use MP3 players or something to make the time pass more quickly while they work.

[donnad.livejournal.com]

Same here, chores and no pay, it was part of being a member of the household. Mom and Dad don't get paid to do them why should we and we live there as well.

When I was 8, I got a paper route, But I still had to do my regular chores as well. I had 7 customers, everyone who lived on my street. I made between .35 and 1.75 a week. At the time it was enough pocket change for the occasional candy bar without having to ask for the money.

[ciani.livejournal.com]

tell them that since you're willing to pay them for doing their laundry, you're going to charge them if you have to do it for them?

yeah I'm mostly kidding :) I wasn't allowed to touch the washing machine at my mom's, and I don't have any good suggestions.

[bluegargantua]

I think your kids are smarter than you think. They've clearly realized that the top 50% of the household makes 100% of the money. The wealth gap is, in many ways, much worse than society at large. If the wealthy elite don't want to see civil uprisings, they should be prepared to contribute more to establish and maintain a social safety net that will let the bottom 50% (who are pretty much incapable of finding legal work even if the employment picture was good) live a tolerable existence.

Occupy Your Living Room
Tom

[dcltdw]

Caveat: I am not a parent, and even so, have a weak understanding of how kids think.

I feel tempted to invoke first principles here: c.f. missionista above. Chores exist to 1, get help, 2, instill responsibility, and 3, instill self-reliance. Allowance is to do #2 and #3 with regards to money, which is sufficiently different.

So my thinking is: if System #1 fails to achieve the first principles, okay, throw out System #1 and try System #2; iterate as needed. Which I think is what you're doing, but I'm not sure, which is the reason for me posting this long reply. :)

---

Also because I'm not a completely heartless bastard I probably won't include major chores like yardwork/shoveling and might allow them to swap chores around. [...] but this morning's episode where the kids ignored the counter stacked high with dishes so they could just put their (unrinsed) dirty dishes on the top of the stack for someone else to wash was kind of the breaking point.

Soooo, yeaaaah, check out this giant bag of I So Don't Know What I'm Talking About that I have here. Not to mention not really knowing your kids. Okay, caveats asides... is there too much option here?

For self-reliance, sure, it's good to know how to cook, clean, do laundry, etc, so rotating chores on a fixed schedule accomplishes that. And if there isn't any room for swapping, then (ha! presumably) no energy is spent on negotiating/wheedling. (Heh heh. Ahh, I crack myself up sometimes.)

Of course, this totally fails if you're trying to instill a sense of Do Something Today Rather Than Procrastinate Until Tomorrow, and well, umm, I, ah, never learned that lesson. ;)

[tigira.livejournal.com]

F gets an allowance and has chores. If he doesn't feed the cat, he loses half his allowance. His other chores are more self care - pick up his toys, put his dirty clothes down the laundry chute, etc. When he remembers to do his chores, he also remembers to follow up for the allowance.

Also, I had been going the "allow your kid to make choices" route. It upsets F to have too many choices. So his choices are what he wears on any particular day (with minimal parental feedback, though I don't really want him to wear his tie ALL the time, as much as he likes it).

I am starting to back away from asking him what he wants for dinner on the nights that we do not all eat together, though. By the time we get to that conversation, it's "hell hour" and it usually ends in yelling.

Just my experience, though. I think we all just really muddle through.

[noire.livejournal.com]

Not a parent as you know but I recently read an article about kids being required to do chores and it being good for them. By a psychologist who had all kinds of rationales for why children need to be involved in work around the house.

I certainly was required to do chores when I was a kid, but there were opportunities to earn over my allowance when my parents needed extra help (special thorough cleaning before a party is what I particularly remember.) I think I was a bit older than your boys when I decided that the trade off (work for money) was worth the effort.

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

Me too - I had daily chores (dishes, mostly) and weekly chores (trash, cleaning the bathroom, cleaning my room, sweeping/vacuuming) and got no pay. So allowance in exchange for regular chores sounds very reasonable and if they don't do the chores in a timely fashion, no allowance.

[melebeth]

Why is there no "like" on live journal?

[blackanvil.livejournal.com]

Yeah, my parents tried this (well, Dad did) and were disappointed with the results. He offered minimum wage for chores like mowing, raking, yardwork, painting, etc.

The problem was that we could make more, often a lot more, doing that sort of work at the neighbors -- and that meant that Dad had to do the work, because we were out doing it elsewhere.

So it turned into "Do this anyway, without pay." Well, that wasn't much fun. Then we both got jobs and were no longer available. Then college, and out from under the parents' wings.

One Thanksgiving, I called home to see if I could come visit. Dad's response was "Sure, I need some yardwork done, and the gutters need cleaning." I didn't come to visit that Thanksgiving, or ever again, until after they got divorced. At this point in time, dad was a Sr. VP at a large chemical waste remediation company. He just couldn't help but try to treat us as cheap, unskilled labor. I noticed my brother never went to visit them either.

[donnad.livejournal.com]

but this morning's episode where the kids ignored the counter stacked high with dishes so they could just put their (unrinsed) dirty dishes on the top of the stack for someone else to wash was kind of the breaking point.

I do have a question about this.
Who's dishes were in the stacked high pile? If they were all the kids dishes fine then giving them grief is okay IMO. But if they weren't, you can't fault the kids for leaving the dishes there. If you and their mother can leave a dish/glass to be washed later, then why can't they?

They will take their cues from you and pygment, if they see you leaving dishes for later they will do the same. If your clothing is left on the floor they will leave theirs on the floor. My mother used to say "Monkey see, Monkey do."

I do think that they should have chores to do and not be expected to be paid for them. If they go above and beyond, like doing the stuff like yardwork or shoveling, then they should get a reward.
A once a month allowance of a few dollars so they can learn how to manage money is not a bad idea. Tying it to chores, maybe, it means taking time to sit down with each of the boys and say, you didn't do this without whining and complaining, this didn't get done at all etc. may be too stressful in the end.

Maybe create a chart of the chores for each day and assign them to each kid/member of the household, put you and Pygment on it too so they can see how much you both do in relation to the things they are asked to do. Print it out, hang it on the fridge. Include everything, laundry, dishes, sweeping, vacuuming, stripping beds, washing towels and sheets and folding and putting them away, bathroom cleaning (list each chore, scrub tub, scrub sink, scrub toilet, wash floor etc. so there is no question what is expected.) I would even include their homework on the chart since it is expected they will do that daily as well.

Good luck.

[nounsandverbs]

Our kids are assigned chores, not because there's a reward involved, but because it's their house and they're expected to help maintain it just like everyone who lives here. Of course, they don't WANT to do any of those chores, so yeah, there's a lot of reminding, cajoling, grumbling, and occasional yelling and removal of privileges such as TV and computer time. But if you're looking for a technique that "works" -- in the sense of getting the chores done every time with almost no hassle -- well, I've never encountered one. Either we put in the work to get them to do the chores, or the chores mostly don't get done. (The big exception is homework, which they're generally good about doing every day with no fuss. But it took years for them to get that way.)

Then again, we grownups don't always set the greatest example when it comes to finishing OUR chores, so perhaps we have no one to blame but ourselves.

You are both

[drwex]

horrible people who should not be let near my children.

At least not until we settle this...

I'm generally unpsyched about the chores and no pay model

[drwex]

I have visions of it turning into more of a fight than we get now about the minimal chores they _do_ have.

I think they get the money-for-work thing

[drwex]

but they don't get the "if nobody does this stuff then bad things will happen" part.

They do get money

[drwex]

and they've got lessons in handling it. Both of them are ridiculously successful at selling lemonade, for instance, and they've gotten money for chores in the past.

I'm not kidding

[drwex]

Part of my plan is that if they don't do the assigned chore they have to pay to have it done.

Yeah, K doesn't do well with too many choices

[drwex]

that's why we usually pick one thing, like "there's a lot of laundry that could be done if you want to make money" or "dishes need cycling - who wants the money".

I'm actually afraid part of the problem is going to be them seeing all the chores that need doing each week and overloading.

They do have chores

[drwex]

I guess I wasn't clear about that in the main post. They have to pick up after themselves and clean their rooms and do self-care chores. Just not bigger house-maintenance things.

Re: I'm not kidding

[ciani.livejournal.com]

well I did say I was only mostly kidding :) but everyone loves their money so it's probably a decent way to motivate them to do the chore. I just wasn't sure, not being a parent, whether or not that would cause a riot.

Mostly they were the kids' dishes

[drwex]

They generate dishes at meals and also from reusable containers that we have them pack their lunches in. The house rule is that if the dishwasher is available (has dirty dishes and not full, or empty) then dishes are supposed to be rinsed and put in. So they failed even to check for that, which is a problem. But the bigger problem is getting them engaged in the necessities of house maintenance.