drwex | Yes, exactly (music)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/arts/music/why-is-pop-music-stuck-on-the-same-old-song/article16557019/

Russell Smith puts a lot of words behind what I've been trying to say: "song" isn't the only interesting thing.

Current Music: Overclocked Records - Genesis

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From:

solipsistnation.livejournal.com

"Why are you writing haiku-- it's such a simple and codified form!"

"Why are you writing short stories? They're such a simple and codified form!"

Working within limitations is more interesting than free-form composition. The limitations are what give the ideas form. Remember how solid a 2x22-minute-side record could be, compared to the inevitable filler generated to fill the space available on a CD? This held true even when it was a pair of 22-minute compositions on either side of a record, as compared to, say, a single 60-minute composition on a CD. Even Laurie Anderson's albums, edited down to 45 minutes, were more engaging than the 5 LP "United States Live I-IV."

Also, "pieces that have no strictures as to length, rhythm or instrumentation" are usually not engaging on anything but an intellectual level, if even that. Pop music isn't about intellect, and artists who have started with the assumption that it is tend to get pretty niche-y. There are, of course, exceptions, but they still tend to stick to the form-- Radiohead, Devo, other bands I like. And when they get outside the form, their music gets less interesting. Radiohead is a good example of this. Once they could do whatever they wanted, they made a couple of great non-standard records and then disappeared up into their own bottoms, releasing semi-listenable albums that failed to find an audience beyond their own core fanbase.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if you want structural experimentation, pop music isn't where that's going to happen, and if it does, it won't be pop music any more.

From:

drwex

Working within limitations is more interesting than free-form composition

Perhaps that's true for you. The question is not whether it's more interesting, but why we exalt only one specific form of limited composition.

Remember how solid a 2x22-minute-side record could be, compared to the inevitable filler generated to fill the space available on a CD?

What I remember is that albums used to have a few good songs on them and a lot of crap to fill up the space because the Cartel wanted to sell more profitable albums versus singles. 78s with good singles on them consistently out-sold albums with those same hit songs featured, because people wanted the songs they wanted. The advent of the CD didn't change that. The fact that the CD single was strangled in its grave (which probably more than anything else led to Napster and what followed) was a business decision, not a format decision.

"pieces that have no strictures as to length, rhythm or instrumentation" are usually not engaging on anything but an intellectual level, if even that

Sez you. One of the things I love about EDM is there's no fixed length for a track, BPM is a variable to be played with, and instrumentation is what you make of it. It's still far too enslaved to 4/4, in part because much of it is built off pop music. If you're comparing to the experimentation of, say, Philip Glass then I'd probably agree with you. Or even most of modern jazz, one of the few music forms I simply cannot tolerate. And I agree with you about Radiohead.

But is wide popularity the only proper metric? And if so, why?

From:

solipsistnation.livejournal.com

Really? You don't think EDM is a formula as much as pop music? EDM (assuming you mean electronic dance music) is _obsessed_ with formula. Think of how many different weirdo subgenres there are of EDM-- garage, gabber, ambient trance, ambient dub, dubstep, two-step, two-step garage, trance, anthem trance, acid trance, acid, dark acid, hardstep, hardcore, happy hardcore, and so on and so forth with every band taking the formula and tweaking things, but still making sure you know EXACTLY what their formula is. BPM is set by the dancefloors they want to be played on-- 120 for basic dancin', 160 for hardcore or goa, 130 for slightly faster, 100 or 110 for chillout rooms. Sure, there's a lot of stuff within "EDM," but there's also a lot of stuff within "rock and roll," and yet it's all more or less formula.

Yes, I did mean "no strictures" as referring to free jazz or Philip Glass (who I usually actually like-- he has composed some interesting repetitive music, to which EDM owes a pretty major debt) or even people like Einstuerzende Neubauten. I wouldn't argue that they are incredibly creative, but I also wouldn't put on their track "Vanadium I Ching," which is a recording of them throwing a set of wrenches at a wall one by one, for any reason other than to demonstrate to somebody the variety of things people call music.

From:

drwex

I do not think that electronic dance music is as devoted to a single "song" structure as pop music. For example, you can see the same structure maintained across rock, metal, country, etc. They have stylistic differences but it's still the same four-minute length and verse-chorus-verse structure. It's true that EDM seems to have an obsession with micro-segmentation of styles, but that's not the same thing as the entire industry being devoted to a single structure on the order of V-C-V.

I do wish DJs were a little less married to 4/4 time but there are more than a few tracks where I try to figure out the time signature and it's "fukifino."

From:

solipsistnation.livejournal.com

The vast majority of EDM tracks I've heard are built around 8-bar or 12-bar segments. I see 6-8 minute length (with some 12-to-20-minute outliers, usually as album tracks or remixes)-- they mostly seem to be written around the length of a 12" 45rpm single-- you can get 2 6-minute tracks a side, giving you an A-side and a second track on the first side, and an extended mix on the B-side.

DJs are married to 4/4 time because that's what records are out there. The records are out there because everyone uses pretty similar software and hardware to write the music. Software is designed around 4/4 bars, and hardware drum machines are built with 16-step measures. Take a look at a TR-808 TR-909 or a TR-606 or a TB-303 and you can see the blueprint for the vast majority of EDM silkscreened on the front panel. Even later sampled stuff is written around gear that inherits heavily from x0xboxes. Get into later sampled tunes, and the Akai MPC2000 laid out 16 drum pads and 16-step measures.

There are _definitely_ artists who intentionally avoid that kind of structure-- they tend to be harder to listen to, though, and even people like Autechre and Aphex Twin and u-Ziq live mostly within the same sort of 4/4 16-step world, even if they mess around with it and do things like play triplet samples on a single step.

Within the songs, there's often a slow-build/climax/release structure, usually with smaller climaxes on the way to the big one. Big stadium DJs are usually the most guilty of this...

So what are you thinking of that has weird time signatures? I'm intrigued-- I (obviously) tend to think of EDM (and even IDM) as mostly building on traditions that go back to Detroit in the 80's, and I'm always interested in hearing new things...

Here are some things I've been digging lately:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQRV1phVHBk

A shorter version of that, with nice piano:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlF-errSDxU

Burial is FANTASTIC. If you haven't listened to him yet, here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd3Ch53PxBs&list=PL345qH3FbJF07IH3kd-0OZFiEUb54_2ST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlEkvbRmfrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4_dzevyFK8

BREAKS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ff50JesMCm0

(The whole Silence Groove "Switched In" EP is pretty great)

bvdub's records are usually really really pretty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGVE__Lct_o

(I love that song, but I tend to listen to it late at night and fall asleep about 15 minutes in.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RL6wQOqUpVg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLNtTk3fyyY

Nick Warren's Sound Garden mixes (from here: http://www.hybridized.org/ ) are a good source for interesting stuff...

So anyway, I don't disagree that it's kind of sad that pop culture likes 4-minute pop songs so much.