Well that was an emotional day (part 2)

[drwex]

And that was when Judah showed up. Below I'm going to talk about my own emotions, using the things I think I know are true. If I err factually, I apologize.

For anyone who lacks the background, shadesong has written up her viewpoint on the events of Saturday, along with some history and a lot of speculation.

Judah has admitted to assault and domestic violence. There is a restraining order in place. Other legal proceedings are ongoing. In this context Judah showed up at the Beginning of Summer party, which is nominally an open invite and at which Song would reasonably be expected to be present. My understanding is that he cleared this with the hosts beforehand; my understanding is that the hosts assumed Song would not be present, though they didn't speak to her directly.

I don't know whether he knew she wasn't there when he arrived; I did not speak to him. What I did was go "HOLY SHIT!" and ping Song immediately. Because if she showed up with him there, unknowing, there would be chaos and harm. I told her because I did not want her walking into an unsafe space unaware.

There resulted a shitstorm, for which I feel some responsibility. I have been told that Song threatened to show up with restraining order in hand, and cops in tow. Judah disappeared some short while later. Some of my own thoughts follow.

1. On space, open parties, and hosting. I long ago went from open to closed parties. I admire the BoS party hosts for their continued policy of openness but that brings with it challenges like this.

Ironically, I had a conversation earlier that evening with one of hosts about some kid behavior. I was personally fine with what the kids (including my own) were doing but the host was clearly not. I explained to the kids that this was the host's house, the host's party, and therefore we would follow the host's rules.

I believe that it's not the hosts' job to create some "safe space;" this is a party at a private residence, not a convention. I believe that it's good for the hosts to be clear on what they mean, and to take steps to have the party they want to have. If they chose to invite or allow Judah then that's their choice. I could wish that they had communicated that choice to Song beforehand but my own communication skills have stumbled so often that I cannot fault others who don't manage perfect communication.

Unfortunately there is no way not to take sides in a dispute like this. If Judah is welcome at these parties then I and everyone else need to evaluate whether we feel it's a good and safe choice to come. Conversely, were he made unwelcome then there would be people who felt they were also made unwelcome.

2. On victim-blaming. I find it ironic that people refer to the way Song conducts her relationships in justifying their responses to her actions. I have my own issues with her, and her style is not mine. But the question here is not about the victim's likeability. That way lies madness, dear friends. Either we take it as given that principles are independent of actors, or we do not. If we're only going to extend safety and caring to people who are likeable victims then I think I'll be getting off the bus here.

It seems from what I know that Song chose to escalate the situation, rather dramatically. That's not a choice I would have made, but I'm a cis- able-bodied white guy with more privilege than I can shake a stick at. I'm not qualified to judge the level of fear or panic or outrage that Song felt. I just accept that they are her reactions and try to deal as best I know how.

I did tell Pygment that if someone had assaulted her the way Judah assaulted Song, and then that person showed up at this party, I would likely have tried to commit serious violence against that person. The irony of the fact that people in our society understand and even accept male-vs-male physical violence and escalation but don't understand female-vs-male emotional outrage and threat escalation is not lost on me.


I will have more to say but I'm losing net access now and I want to put this much down while I have the thoughts in my head. Comments, as always, are on. Please be gentle.

Comments

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

thanks for sharing this.
a lot more to say but probably not today given other things on my to-do list
*hugs*

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

For a little more perspective, I can fill in some of the surrounding details here.

There is a restraining order in place. Other legal proceedings are ongoing.

Here I'd like to clarify that the restraining order is specifically against him, and the ongoing proceedings = a civil case against him for multiple counts of assault (including sexual), animal abuse, and some financial issues.

There resulted a shitstorm, for which I feel some responsibility.

You shouldn't feel much. Yours was the first message I received when I woke from my nap, but I received text messages from four other people in rapid succession. (Which also goes to show that yes, I was expected to attend.)

I have been told that Song threatened to show up with restraining order in hand, and cops in tow.

Here's what actually happened, because the "cops" part is the part that seems to have triggered a bunch of Geek Social Fallacies.

1. I was informed by various people who'd told the hosts they were uncomfortable with my rapist attending that the hosts had said they'd ask him to leave if I was there. No amount of upset people would make them budge otherwise. (Which I find interesting, as they *have* banned other rapists.)
2. Being as I am very aware that Judah uses these parties to pick up chicks, the idea of this being where he picked up his next victim was pretty much tearing me apart.
3. I decided to call a cab and go to the party so that he would not be able to use it as his hunting ground. (If you skipped reading my post, be aware that I have a broken foot and was in severe neck/shoulder/upper back pain on Saturday). I got dressed and texted to alert the hosts.
4. I picked up the phone to call the cab and found that my hands were shaking too much for me to dial the phone. I had to sit down and do some deep breathing. I came to the conclusion that, between my physical pain and emotional distress, it would not be good for me to confront my rapist in person at that time.

I'm going to copy/paste the cop-specific info from my e-mail to Rachel.

"That wasn't a threat - it was a statement of how the restraining order works. I can get Adam to scan a copy at work tomorrow and send it to you. When he violates the order, the police get called, and he gets arrested. It's not the responsibility of the homeowner/host to be involved, and it's recommended that you're not for your own safety.
I remind you that I have this restraining order against him because ur guerj zr vagb n jnyy, chapurq zr, gjvfgrq zl unaq naq jevfg oruvaq zl onpx, fgbzcrq ba zl sbbg (xabjvat zl uvfgbel jvgu naxyr/sbbg vawhevrf) [rot13 for triggers]. He did these things when my daughter was upstairs. (I have an mp3 of him describing this, in detail, to the judge.) He is a violent offender with a warped sense of reality who has a history of not letting the presence of others get in the way of assaulting me.
Regarding the police, the fact of the matter is that he has given me every reason to believe that the next time he sees me, the assault will be worse, and I need them there to document his breaking of the order and remove him so that no one - me, you as the hosts, or other partygoers who might want to get chivalrous and try to keep him from getting to me - gets hurt.
I am discomfited that the tone of much of your response seems to be that I was being somehow rude to follow a procedure that the police instructed me to follow for my own safety and the safety of others. I wish I was seeing more focus on protecting the young women at your party that Judah was there to lay groundwork with for further rape and abuse."

Essentially, regarding the cops: It's procedure, plain and simple.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

And the rest of my comment:

If Judah is welcome at these parties then I and everyone else need to evaluate whether we feel it's a good and safe choice to come.

I agree.

The irony of the fact that people in our society understand and even accept male-vs-male physical violence and escalation but don't understand female-vs-male emotional outrage and threat escalation is not lost on me.

I also find that interesting.

One more point to bring up, which I didn't in my post because I haven't discussed host/other attendee response yet: The presence of Judah is triggery for more people than just me. I know of a few people who left the party early because seeing him there was so upsetting - I know that at least one of those people has told the hosts so. I know that several people have communicated their distress thusly. I know that at least one other person is composing a post about how deeply they were upset and how inappropriately Judah has acted towards them in the past.

So given that Judah is known to be a violent sexual offender who presents initially as very charming, why would a host choose to set him loose among their party guests? Why not listen to your guests when they tell you they find his presence personally upsetting?

I can't really imagine the answers to these questions.

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

But the question here is not about the victim's likeability.

A useful phrase I heard on some cop show: You don't get to pick the vic.

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

I have a question about how your restraining order works. I'm curious as when I got one a few years ago, it stated that the person in question would have to leave a common place/gathering if I were already there or if I arrived while he was there (500ft.)

What you wrote implies that your restraining order forbades him from being anywhere that there is a reasonable expectation that you would be. Is that correct? And if so, what sort of language is there around how he is to determine your presence at any given event/place and abide by the terms? I'm guessing that yours is more stringent or they've upped the way protections work since I got one.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

It's specifically that he must leave if I'm there, but he was instructed firmly by the judge to not go anywhere he had a reasonable expectation I'd be. And both the judge and my lawyer advised me strongly to involve the police and not try to engage him myself. His affect in that courtroom was... fairly terrifying.

As far as the actual language, the RO's downstairs, I'm upstairs, and I've got a broken foot, but I *will* have Adam scan it tomorrow.

In short: He could not be arrested for being there when I wasn't, though it reflects very poorly on him for the upcoming trial. If I was there, he would have been arrested.

[eccentrific.livejournal.com]

The irony of the fact that people in our society understand and even accept male-vs-male physical violence and escalation but don't understand female-vs-male emotional outrage and threat escalation is not lost on me.

This is one of those things that just pisses me off so much. I can't quite articulate why at the moment, but it seems to me to come from the same prejudice that means that if you are a woman alone at a bar the way to get a guy to go away and stop hitting on you is NOT to ask him to go away but to tell him that you have a boyfriend. Because guys respect other guys' territory, but not a woman's boundaries.

[drwex]

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and would love the chance to meet your new family member.

[drwex]

That is certainly part of it. I think another large part of it has to do with how we raise our boys, and it diverges wildly from the topic of this post, but it is of intense interest to me as the father of two male-identifying children. I'd be happy to pursue this thread with you or in general.

[drwex]

Let me help you with the imagining for I have spoken with people who represent these viewpoints. I cannot say I agree with them so I hope I am fairly putting forth their positions:

There are people who care about Judah and who believe that their caring trumps, or blocks, his ill behaviors. This is, I think, a common response in our society as when a man catcalls at a woman and she asks "Would you say that if your mother was here?" The underlying notion is that many sorts of ill behavior are restrained by the presence of others.

There are people who believe that Judah has changed, has done whatever to them qualifies as trying to get his shit together and therefore deserves another chance. I do not think there's anyone who holds him blameless (if so, they've not spoken to me) but there are people who believe that blame should not extend to social shunning for indefinite or infinite periods.

There are people who believe that his appearance in that place, at that time, came with sufficient constraints that he was not intending to use the party to find someone to harm. There are people who believe that you make suppositions (as for example written in your post) that require, effectively, mind-reading. The step from "many/most predators behave this way" to "this person continues to be a predator and furthermore is behaving this way" is a step they reject.

I don't think anyone expects you to believe as I've described above; however, I don't think the people I've spoken to who hold these views are necessarily irrational for holding them.

----------

In this part I'm speaking for myself again, stating how I feel and what I believe. I was unaware that your R.O. required you to aggressively protect "your territory." Your intention to appear because he was there appears like escalation and unnecessary escalation at that. You come across as spoiling for a fight.

I further believe that you should not take it on yourself to become the defender of other young women by putting in a personal appearance and driving off this predator. I see that as "looking for trouble" and close enough to "making trouble" that I am discomforted. Again I draw the line between a public space such as a convention and a party - even an open one - at someone's home. You appear to be seeking to impose your standards of safety and tolerance on the private homes of others. Whether I agree with those standards is beside the point; I don't seek to impose them on others. Does that mean there will be people who tolerate and even welcome the company of this person whom I do not trust? Yes. But I don't think I would make the world or even our social group a better place by seeking to impose my standards on an informed adult population.

I apologize for popping on and off like this - I know it makes for awkward conversations - but I'm on a work trip and I must now go do another work thing for a couple hours.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

There are people who care about Judah and who believe that their caring trumps, or blocks, his ill behaviors.

I think we probably agree on the ludicrousness of that.

There are people who believe that Judah has changed, has done whatever to them qualifies as trying to get his shit together and therefore deserves another chance.

...without so much as admitting that raping and assaulting me was wrong? I don't quite understand that much bending of reality.

(I'm also privy to a lot of stuff about his actions that I can't speak about at present, because court case, but the above fact is clear to all.)

The step from "many/most predators behave this way" to "this person continues to be a predator and furthermore is behaving this way" is a step they reject.

I understand how one can decide to do the logic contortions for that, though not why one would.

You come across as spoiling for a fight.

*nods* Whereas if I had been, I'd've shown up regardless.

The way the RO works, in fact, means that I could have, say, shown up at every class he teaches at Artisan's Asylum and made him leave the building, among many other things. But I'm not interested in picking a fight with him, I'm interested in never seeing him again. So I have, demonstrably, not done anything that I would have done if I had been spoiling for a fight.

But I don't think I would make the world or even our social group a better place by seeking to impose my standards on an informed adult population.

The key word there is informed. If the people in his victim pool were informed, I wouldn't feel the need to keep hauling out the megaphone. *wry smile* They're not. I'm not trying to impose standards, I'm trying to make sure that people's choices are informed.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Addendum:

You appear to be seeking to impose your standards of safety and tolerance on the private homes of others.

What it really is is that I expected the standards of safety and tolerance of the hosts to be consistent with their past declared standards. They've banned rapists before for doing less than he did.

Some rapists are more equal than others?

I feel that if attendees have been assured that rapists are banned, they should may be told that that policy has changed. The reason I haven't posted is because the hosts are currently actively investigating and making decisions, and I want to see the final results before I make decisions based on them.

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

Hmm. YMMV and mine was, again, a many years ago. I was told - by counsel, the cops and a judge that there was no reasonable way for my abuser to be able to determine whether I would be in a given public venue or at a public event or shared social event without contacting me or actively seeking information about my whereabouts from others and as those things were both construed as continued harassment, I could not and should not expect him to avoid any given place other than my home and workplace and the homes of my family members. And thus that the only way to handle places (grocery store, party, etc.) where we might both be was to enforce that if I arrived or was present, he could not be within 500 ft and if he did not leave or respect the distance, then the cops could be called.

And very thankfully, I never had to have the order enforced and we were able to find an appreciable peace over time.

[drwex]

I am not interested in trying to argue with you about positions I myself do not hold; however, I think there's a significant and important step between "I see how you have reasoned that way" and "I agree with your reasoning." Perhaps you were being hyperbolic when you said "I can't really imagine". That said, a couple minor responses.

I understand how one can decide to do the logic contortions for that, though not why one would.

Calling them "logic contortions" may be further hyperbole but to my knowledge there is no evidence or accusation of his misbehavior since he assaulted you. It therefore seems not beyond reason for a person to assume that a lack of evidence is evidence of lack. I see no contortions here, merely a bias toward reading the situation in a way favorable to him where you seem to be making assumptions equally based on lack of knowledge that are unfavorable to him.

I could have, say, shown up at every class he teaches at Artisan's Asylum and made him leave the building, among many other things

You wish your lack of ill behavior to be taken as evidence of your good intentions, but you do not wish others to take Judah's lack of ill behavior as evidence of his good intentions. Perhaps you see how someone might reason otherwise.

If the people in his victim pool were informed, I wouldn't feel the need to keep hauling out the megaphone

I have not seen or heard anyone object to your "hauling out the megaphone" as it applies to your speech, postings to LJ (I don't read FB), talks at conventions, and so on. That is a far cry from stating that you intend to show up, with cops in tow, at a location where you know him to be. Nothing in that course of action involved information; rather, it involved you seeming to behave as the self-appointed protector of unspecified innocents.

When I referred to "informed adult" I specifically meant party hosts. I did take steps to inform one person who I discovered had a closer-than-expected connection and a lack of important facts.

[drwex]

I expected the standards of safety and tolerance of the hosts to be consistent with their past declared standards. They've banned rapists before for doing less than he did.

Some rapists are more equal than others?

Rapists are not a class of automaton. They're people, who are themselves friendly with other people and are friends of friends of people. It's natural and human to treat people we know and like differently from those we do not know or do not like. Again, you seem to be applying the sort of standards ("if attendees have been assured that rapists are banned, they should may be told that that policy has changed") I would expect of a convention, meeting, or other public group to the private hosts of a house party. I don't think that's necessarily going to work.

Hosts, like rapists, are not a class of automaton. They're people who make decisions on the basis of what they believe to be good and sufficient reasons, with full knowledge that they are biased in favor of their friends and in favor of people close to them. Being human they may err, change their minds, and make exceptions. So long as they do so in their own homes I cannot fault them. Yes, it's a large social and open invitation event. That doesn't change my opinion.

[tamidon.livejournal.com]

as a side note, there were public statements from Song that she was looking for a ride, specifically from Mark,on Facebook. The fact that he privately told her he couldnt do it is irrelevant to the fact that it was semi public knowledge that she was at the very least trying to go.

[mrw42.livejournal.com]

This is an emotional subject for me because, as you know, one of my daughters was raped by a member of our community when she was 13. Since then, we have been dealing with the possibility that we might run into her rapist at Arisia or at a party. I avoid bringing my daughter to places he has been known to go (except for Arisia, because she did not want to yield the entire convention to him), and I am wary about going to those places myself. I sometimes send advance scouts to make sure he is not at a party before I show up, and I leave immediately if he does show up.

Many people who have been told about what happened and who claim to believe that this person raped my 13-year-daughter continue to host him at parties and expose their children to him. I'm not entirely sure why, but I guess that is their choice to make?

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Calling them "logic contortions" may be further hyperbole but to my knowledge there is no evidence or accusation of his misbehavior since he assaulted you. It therefore seems not beyond reason for a person to assume that a lack of evidence is evidence of lack. I see no contortions here, merely a bias toward reading the situation in a way favorable to him where you seem to be making assumptions equally based on lack of knowledge that are unfavorable to him.
You wish your lack of ill behavior to be taken as evidence of your good intentions, but you do not wish others to take Judah's lack of ill behavior as evidence of his good intentions. Perhaps you see how someone might reason otherwise.

Okay, I think I see a major disconnect. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You view the offending action as one rape and one instance of assault and battery, one year ago, and no one has reported being raped or assaulted by him since.

What it actually is is a ten-year pattern of emotional abuse that follows a classic domestic violence cycle of escalation. Ask his former partners - if they're willing to talk to someone who is not themself Judah's victim. I got a lot of e-mails about this last June. One of his exes actually moved across the country and erased her entire online presence in fear of him - I won't connect you to her, but she's writing something up for my lawyer.

The rape and assault were not an isolated incident, they were the predictable escalation of a long-established pattern.

That's what I'm saying does not stop.

As far as "it's been a year and there's no accusation of misbehavior" - it was two years after his last incident with his former long-term partner that he escalated to rape and physical abuse with me. During those two years, the emotional abuse was ongoing, but you didn't hear about it. Boiling frog situation. Normal in DV.

Silence now doesn't mean he's completely changed his personality. Silence now is a lot more likely to mean what it's meant for the past ten years.

Honestly, my recommendation to you and anyone puzzling at this is to call the BARCC hotline, explain the info that you have, and ask advice. They have extensive training, and they don't have the personal connection that's a) ripping me to shreds every time I have to sit here and try to respond dispassionately about a man who emotionally tortured me, raped me, and beat me up, and b) is causing you to filter everything I say through a the-victim-is-defensive filter.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

*nods* That and seven years of always attending the party = definitely good reason to assume that I would, in fact, be there. (And I did get a ride offer; Mink was going to take me.)

[drwex]

You view the offending action as one rape and one instance of assault and battery, one year ago, and no one has reported being raped or assaulted by him since.

Please don't assign views to me, particularly when I am trying to be careful to delineate what I know as fact, what I believe, and what I've been told. Since you ask, I believe your account of an escalating series of acts against you and your household that culminated in the incidents which led to him being evicted and brought to court. If you say there are unnamed others who suffered similar or worse assaults I will generally believe that you believe these people. However, other people might not find these reports credible. Or they might not agree with the statement that someone who was a horrible person then is still a horrible person, particularly when that contradicts their individual interactions with him.

Silence now doesn't mean he's completely changed his personality. Silence now is a lot more likely to mean what it's meant for the past ten years.

So you say. But that doesn't mean it's nonsensical or illogical for someone to believe otherwise. Your framing also presupposes the point of view that bad people will always be bad and can never change their ways. That also contradicts the personal experience of at least one person I've spoken to.

my recommendation to you and anyone puzzling at this is to call the BARCC hotline, explain the info that you have, and ask advice

I'm not puzzling, nor am I seeking advice. I think I've been fairly clear about who I believe and what actions I would take, were I in your or Adam's position. That clarity does not keep me from sympathizing with people who believe otherwise, nor do I find their reasoning illogical, however much I disagree with it. If I struggle to understand why people I like and respect do not reason the way I do, then that's my frequent struggle.

is causing you to filter everything I say through a the-victim-is-defensive filter

I'm not entirely clear on what that means, but I am sorry if my attempts to understand are causing you pain. As I mentioned earlier, I try to hold in my mind that I speak from a position of vast privilege, not least of which are white, cis, and able-bodied male. I also speak from my experiences, which include being abused as a child. This method is how I filter and understand the world around me and I'm trying to be careful to speak in "I" sentences and not be setting truth for anyone else.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

culminated in the incidents which led to him being evicted and brought to court.

For clarity: he wasn't "evicted and brought to court"; evicted is a specific legal term that doesn't apply to the situation. The incident was the assault and battery, immediately after which the police were called and a restraining order was issued against him. Which meant that he could no longer live there, of course. But the eviction process is a different thing.

Your framing also presupposes the point of view that bad people will always be bad and can never change their ways

Incorrect; it presupposes that a person who still claims that raping and assaulting partners is justified has not, at this point, changed his ways. People can. But they need to realize that they need to first. He's not there. He is still in a place of denying wrongdoing and spinning she-had-it-coming scenarios, so yes, it's illogical to believe that he's changed.

EDIT: What part of this may boil down to is
a) I have more info about his position than anyone else due to his recent actions regarding the lawsuit. I wish I could say more. I currently can't. There will be a series of posts when all of this is over.
b) I understand the DV cycle more than most, not just personally but academically - I'd be interested to hear sweetmmeblue's assessment, for example, but I'm comfortable saying that, as someone who has been volunteering with BARCC for almost eight years, I do have more in-depth knowledge of the DV cycle than most laypeople.
c) For restorative justice to occur, the rapist must first admit wrongdoing, and he's a long way from that. I'm not saying he can never change - my settlement offer insisted on DV offender rehabilitation and anger management classes, which clearly shows that I believe change can happen. He refused, because he sees no problem with his behavior. These are not the actions of a person who's changed and gotten better.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

I don't know you or your daughter, and I have no idea who you're talking about, but I have kids of my own, and I'd like to know.

I have been reading way too much about Bradley, Breen, et al. the past few days, and it's making me kind of choke on fannish non-exclusion.

[mrw42.livejournal.com]

I can't seem to send you a LJ PM (I'm not sure if messages are constrained to friends, or if LJ is just flaky today), but if you could contact me and let me know who you are, I'd be happy to give you some more information. I am margaretw42 at gmail or "Margaret Wasserman" on FB.

[rmd.livejournal.com]

I did not know that. I'm very sorry. As a frequent Arisia party host, I'd like to know who it was so I can adjust accordingly.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Dropping this here, copied from my LJ, then going offline to try to get actual work done:

Hm.

I've been made aware that some have created a me vs. party hosts narrative.

That does not exist.

You'll notice that my prior post said nothing about the hosts of Saturday's party. It's a huge, busy party and things happened fast - and the hosts have e-mailed me saying they're investigating. I know they've already spoken to some people. They have a call scheduled tonight with someone who has a lot of extra-relevant feedback for them. The reason I didn't say anything about them is that this is actively getting worked on.

And yet, completely outside of the process of the people actually involved, someone has decided that they want a me vs. the community narrative.

I'd like you to think about who that narrative serves.

It serves no one but Judah.

Y'all know that I will name and shame if a situation merits it. The fact that I have not tells you that this me vs. hosts narrative is patently false.

Consider your sources.

[drwex]

In response to your edit, I continue to urge you to understand that people who are operating with less knowledge than yourself, perhaps having personal experiences, will reason differently. That doesn't make them irrational, nor should they be beyond understanding, even if you or I disagree with their reasoning.

I'm pretty sure that Pygment has a full day of clients today and has to solo the kids tonight. I'll ask her if she feels like responding here when she's able.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no pressure to Pygment - just that as a professional in the field, she has more knowledge than others in the community about DV and how violent offenders cycle. It would be good to hear from a professional, but by no means am I demanding that people speak if they can't or don't want to.

[kimberlogic.livejournal.com]

M, I didn't know about this. I'm so sorry your daughter and your family have to deal with this.
If there is anything we can do to be sure that any of our parties/events are safe space, we will, so please feel free to contact us any time if there's something we are hosting that you or your daughter might want to attend.

[dcltdw]

Caveat: aside from you, I don't think I know anyone else involved.

I believe that it's not the hosts' job to create some "safe space;" this is a party at a private residence, not a convention. I believe that it's good for the hosts to be clear on what they mean, and to take steps to have the party they want to have. If they chose to invite or allow Judah then that's their choice. I could wish that they had communicated that choice to Song beforehand but my own communication skills have stumbled so often that I cannot fault others who don't manage perfect communication.

This makes me go "hmm". On the one hand, as you wrote, it's what you believe, so that's not really up for debate. I think it's ... a (un)conscious decision. I don't mean to trivialize violent behavior, but I can similarly not make plans for a backyard bbq in case it rains and just wing it, or think it through in advance and announce a plan. I think it's common for people not to take "but what if X and Y show up?" into consideration, but to me, that's a dodge, an abdication of responsibility. Put another way: if you're hosting, you're responsible, even if you don't want to be responsible for dealing with that.

Unfortunately there is no way not to take sides in a dispute like this. If Judah is welcome at these parties then I and everyone else need to evaluate whether we feel it's a good and safe choice to come. Conversely, were he made unwelcome then there would be people who felt they were also made unwelcome.

Similar to above: if I'm attending, I'm responsible for what message I'm sending by showing up or not showing up. I can dodge that, I can say "oww oww too hard won't think", of course.

Either we take it as given that principles are independent of actors, or we do not.

Amen.

[woodwardiocom.livejournal.com]

I'd also like to know.

[celticdragonfly.livejournal.com]

I think this sounds like a very difficult situation. I like the way you are thinking about it, and I applaud that you are taking the effort to also see how other people may be thinking differently about it. He sounds like a real problem guy. I wish there were better ways to convince people about individuals like this, to keep them just hunting out their next victim. I have known people similar who could be very charming in the short run.

Yeah, long day

[sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com]

and on too little sleep. Been up since 430am. I will try and put some brain cells together for this tomorrow.

[paradoox.livejournal.com]

The irony of the fact that people in our society understand and even accept male-vs-male physical violence and escalation but don't understand female-vs-male emotional outrage and threat escalation is not lost on me.

I really hope that *our* community does not accept male-on-male physical violence and escalation. I don't think I've ever seen anyone throw a punch at a con or even a party in our community. (Well, I think I've heard of it happening at an anime con, but my understanding is the person got banned.)

And thanks for writing your your post. I think it has helped get some things out in the open that were not clear before.

[drwex]

You're welcome. I think there's a difference between 'accept' and 'understand'. We find it natural and understandable that angry men should (want to) throw punches. We still teach kids not to hit, and prevent such violence as best we can, but the model is deeply embedded in society. "He got angry" is treated as sufficient explanation, even though it's undesirable. Womens' anger, and means of expressing it, much less so.

Part of how I understand the situation of Judah and Song is by projecting myself into it. What if I was in his shoes? What if I was in hers? What if someone attacked Pygment the way Song was attacked? Then I try to examine my emotional responses to see what they tell me. I realize you never know until you are truly in the situation, but still this is one of the things I do.

[sariel-t.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sharing, and thank you for putting this under a cut. I very much agree with what you have to say, and would be open to further discussion if desired.

[surrealestate.livejournal.com]

As a once-and-future Arisia party host as well as a parent, I would very much like to know who this was if you are willing to share.

So sorry that happened. :(

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

... or if I arrived while he was there

If I understand you correctly, it means that you could basically drive him out of any common area if you wanted to. Am I understanding this correctly?

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

I decided to call a cab and go to the party so that he would not be able to use it as his hunting ground.

It doesn't seem so wise to me that, when you already are having a great deal of trouble with him, you actively attempt to police his behavior in regard to other people.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

And you are not a rape and assault and battery survivor heavily triggered by behaviors on the part of your rapist and abuser. Of course our thought processes would be different.

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

If we're only going to extend safety and caring to people who are likeable victims

So true (sound in logic and law) and yet so true (everybody does it). The most explicit version of this that I've heard is that when one sues, the amount of money one is likely to get depends heavily on the demographics of the victim. Young, attractive women fare the best. And this isn't because of biases in The System, it's because of biases in juries. "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[pywaket.livejournal.com]

This. 10000x this.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

in other threads it sounded like you felt making your way there to enforce the order was a duty to the community and other women; I had assumed that was your assessment in non-triggered headspace. Reading this response, I am wondering if I have misunderstood?

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I was very, very triggered. Not rational headspace at all. I talked about that in my post here (http://shadesong.livejournal.com/4509356.html#comments); excerpt: "I start shaking; my heart starts pounding. This is the first time he's tried to hunt me down. I respond with "I thought he was banned! Do Scott & Rachel know he's there?" People promise to tell them. I wait, violently nauseous and very afraid."

This was the first time he'd gone to a place he had reasonable expectation to see me at since the rape and subsequent assault and battery; the last time I saw him prior to that was when he came to pick up the rest of his stuff - and I was terrified then, too, because the first time he came to pick up his stuff, the police escort got inattentive and Judah came at me. (This was witnessed by people in our community who were there for emotional support, who are currently taking a break from this conversation for their own emotional health.)

It's also worthy of reiteration that, in addition to the neck/shoulder pain that kept me home the day of BoS, my foot is broken (broke it on June 5) and I'm in a boot that restricts my mobility. Foot/ankle injuries are a bonus trigger for me, which Judah knows.

The full list of what Judah did to me is in my LJ, tagged with his name, if you want to look. I have reason to be afraid of him, and yes, sitting alone in my house and hearing that he was somewhere I had only just decided not to be, at a party I never missed, did terrify me beyond all reason.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

:nod: Sorry, despite rereading my query several times to make sure I wasn't going to have people getting upset with me for something I wasn't trying to say*, on rereading it now I realize . . . I didn't manage to clearly ask the question, and should have included an "also" in it.

I had assumed, based on responses in other threads, that in general, regardless of triggered or non-triggered headspace, you considered it and still consider it to be your duty to the community and other women to travel to where Judah was that evening so that the RO would be enforced.

I had thought the triggered headspace and understandable terror (I would come to the same conclusions about escalation given the information you had) was actually how you /didn't/ get there, and that had you not been shaking so badly you couldn't call a cab you would have done so.

The prior response, and your comment here, imply that maybe I've been misinterpreting some of the conversation.

I guess . . . to try to pull this away from stuff past - if someone contacted you and said, "I have a RO against my abuser and just found out he showed up at my local monthly trivia night that I only just an hour or two ago bailed on without telling anybody and I'm frightened of what this means and also I am worried about the other gals there."

before this thread, I was assuming your response would be something along the lines of saying that if the querant had spoons to do so, she should go, in order to keep the abuser from being emboldened in pushing that boundary and in order to protect her friends from him.

After this thread, it sounds more like the headspace you had at the time got you to that decision, but that it isn't necessarily what you would advise others to do going forward?

*I tell myself over and over to stop using the ipad when near a laptop.

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

I had assumed, based on responses in other threads, that in general, regardless of triggered or non-triggered headspace, you considered it and still consider it to be your duty to the community and other women to travel to where Judah was that evening so that the RO would be enforced.

I had thought the triggered headspace and understandable terror (I would come to the same conclusions about escalation given the information you had) was actually how you /didn't/ get there, and that had you not been shaking so badly you couldn't call a cab you would have done so.

No, the triggered headspace was when my brain started screaming "you have to get here and keep him from picking up his next victim because the hosts say they won't stop him and if you don't do it it's going to be your fault."

Which... self-blame is a normal thing and an awful thing. And I know that when he rapes his next partner, it will not be my fault, because it's his decision and his actions. But that all got mixed it with my panic that he'd come there to assault me.

I had a tiny breakdown in my living room with the phone in my hands and it helped dissipate some of the outright panic, and I remembered that I could be no good to anyone else if I was not taking care of myself, and putting myself in severe danger != taking care of myself. As I said in my post, I still feel shitty about not being able to do more, and if his next rape is traceable to this party, I will feel even worse. Even though I know it's not my fault, and I know the hosts knew he was a rapist and let him stay there with young women who didn't know. (I'm not saying it'll be the hosts' fault. Rape is only ever the rapist's fault.)

After this thread, it sounds more like the headspace you had at the time got you to that decision, but that it isn't necessarily what you would advise others to do going forward?

That's correct. The advice I'd give is to contact the host of the trivia night to let them know if they didn't already. (In my case, of course, the hosts knew.) And to contact the other girls there that you know to caution them.

This is both because, looking at it from a clear, non-triggered headspace, it *is* a bad idea to put yourself in harm's way... and because I tend to put myself out there in these discussions and situations because I'm a Tough Guy and am used to taking blows so others don't have to. I wouldn't recommend that others do that, and I need to remember not to do it myself when I am already severely wounded. It's a reflex.

The ideal is for no one to get hurt any more than they already have, and I'm bad at counting myself as someone who shouldn't get hurt. :/

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This clarifies a lot.

(And I have some inkling of the thought processes where I feel responsible for anything I think I can affect, even if on an intellectual level I know I'm not.)

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Thank you for taking that altered headspace into account.