And you don't, either!

[drwex]

davidfcooper's comment on a previous entry reminded me that I wanted to write a bit about one of the ways Thing 1 was awesome this past weekend. He agreed to go with me to the mass without complaint, including dressing appropriately. Like most kids his age he thinks shorts and tee shirts are de rigeur at all occasions and he's fought us about wearing proper (button up) shirts in the past. This time he cooperated and when we couldn't find one of his shirts that worked he agreed to wear one of mine. It's still baggy on him, but I imagine that won't be true much longer.

On the way there I told him that I appreciated his willingness and he said, "You know I don't want to go?" I said yes, and told him about a great piece that appeared on NPR's "This I Believe" some years ago: Deirdre Sullivan on "Always Go to the Funeral". It's something I believe strongly myself - you go, and you do what you can to support those who are still around because the dead won't be able to appreciate it.

This led to us discussing what the dead can or cannot appreciate. Thing 1 acknowledged that a lot of his discomfort came from discussions of an afterlife that doesn't align with what he believes and I re-shared my own militant agnosticism, of which the kids are well aware.

Digression/backstory: I used to believe in G-d. I was raised conservative Jewish and believed in that telling of the origin stories and construction of the universe as semi-mythical and that the truth values assigned to the literal words of the Bible (or Torah) were less important than the teachings and values those words gave. Then around age 19 I lost my faith. I still understand that it exists and that other people have it, but I could not maintain mine in the face of there being no evidence for G-d's existence. Still, I had to (have to) agree that lack of evidence is not always evidence of lack so I can't be atheist either. I am agnostic, and militant about it, which is to say I believe that I don't know, and you don't either! < /end>

Thing 1 opined that G-d likely existed because why else would so many people believe in it? This led to a brief discussion of how the popularity of a belief is not a worthwhile measure of its truth value. I reminded him that for a long time people believed black folk and white folk shouldn't marry. People even published "scientific" papers that "proved" colored folk were inferior. I reminded him that people will believe things that help them defend their own preconceptions and he agreed that the so-called science about people of color was indeed people making stuff up to protect their own (racist) assumptions.

He also seemed willing to agree that therefore, the fact that a lot of people believe in G-d wasn't actually helpful in deciding for himself whether it was true. He admitted that he wanted the world to be more like D&D cosmology, which admits of the existence of many coexisting divine beings. We got sidetracked then into a discussion of the history of D&D and religion and how having "angels" and "demons/devils" in the game caused problems in the past.

I suspect other people have these kinds of conversations with their kids more often, but Thing 1 has a strong reluctance to talk about what he thinks or believes so it's a rarity to find him open to discussion. Then we got to the church and things there mostly got dropped.

I did catch him eye-rolling at some of the priest's assertions about our friend enjoying the afterlife, though. Kids developing their own ideas is awesome and I love watching mine going through it.

Comments

[davidfcooper.livejournal.com]

"D&D cosmology, which admits of the existence of many coexisting divine beings" sounds something like what contemporary scholars believe Israelite cosmology was like during the First Temple period prior to the religious reforms of King Josiah and the further development of monotheism during the Babylonian exile, except that Yahweh and his wife Asherah were considered top gods among many deities. For a proof text see the original Hebrew of Psalm 82 verses 1, 6, and 7. Rabbi Moses DeLeone, the author of the Zohar, identified the Shekhina with Asherah.

Might Thing 1's "eye-rolling at some of the priest's assertions about our friend enjoying the afterlife" reflect a Jewish emphasis on this world rather than on the world to come? Come to think of it, probably very few if any of my non-Orthodox Jewish friends, relatives, and acquaintances believe in the world to come, though some who dabble in Kabbalah and others who are also Buddhists (BuJews) believe in reincarnation. In rabbinic literature when it is said of someone that he or she merited a place in the world to come, it seems more like an evaluation of the life they lived in this world than a belief in the afterlife.

[minkrose]

Since I so rarely talk about this, but.

I do, on some level, know that I don't know. Growing up UU, that is indeed where I started. But growing up UU also gave me the opportunity to shape and choose my own belief, which is what I have done. I have very strong faith in what I believe, and it was a years-long process of developing a belief that suited me. But it suits me very well, and I don't ever try to impose it on others (or indeed, even tell people about it; it's a private decision!)... and yet I still agree with you: I don't know.

I still get a lot of value out of my faith, even though I have chosen to believe it. It feels right and true to me, and that helps center a part of my core that I do think makes me truer to myself, and closer to the person I want to be. What else could I want from faith? And I would suspect that your militant agnosticism does that for you as well -- feels true to yourself, and valid for who you want to be. I believe in EVERYONE'S right to choose their own beliefs; it is a complicated process. I hope the kids find their way, too.

[chienne-folle.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Watching your kids grow and develop must be fascinating.

I was an agnostic for many decades, and then eventually I decided that Occam's Razor applied and became an atheist. Once I stopped feeling as if I had to give equal weight to the "maybe there's a god" school of thought because so MANY people believed it so strongly, I felt a lot calmer. (That doesn't necessarily mean that atheism is for you -- I'm not trying to convert you -- just sharing my story.)

It always amazes me that Christians and Jews can say, "Zeus and Hera and Poseidon never existed; they're stories that the ancient Greeks made up and then believed in. Odin, Freya, and Thor never existed; they're stories that the Norse made up and then believed in. Ra, Osiris, and Hashtor never existed; they're stories that the ancient Egypitans made up and then believed in. Krishna, Shiva, and Vishnu never existed; they're stories the Hindus made up and then believed in. But MY god is REAL." I have slightly more respect for pagans who take a "the more, the merrier" approach and believe in ALL the gods who've ever been claimed to exist. I don't agree with them, but it does at least seem like a more intellectually consistent worldview. :-)

[drwex]

I actually don't have a problem with that last one because I can easily say that in the past people made up a story that space was the home of the gods and the stars were points of light hung in it and then they made up another story about phlogiston but now we understand it's vacuum. So just because past theories about a thing were wrong doesn't incline me to believe that present theories are also wrong.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

It always amazes me that Christians and Jews can say, "Zeus and Hera and Poseidon never existed; they're stories that the ancient Greeks made up and then believed in. Odin, Freya, and Thor never existed; they're stories that the Norse made up and then believed in. Ra, Osiris, and Hashtor never existed; they're stories that the ancient Egypitans made up and then believed in. Krishna, Shiva, and Vishnu never existed; they're stories the Hindus made up and then believed in. But MY god is REAL."

I've found this tragically amusing over the years. And yet, try to convince people of this when they don't want to see that logic.

[chienne-folle.livejournal.com]

Sing it, Sistah!

I'd talk about how religions that depend upon faith deliberately inculcate habits of mind that are illogical, because they need people to think that way in order to survive, but Wex's journal is perhaps not the right place for that discussion...

Someday we really must have that tea.

[sariel-t.livejournal.com]

Neato.

[weegoddess.livejournal.com]

::reading along::