It's a weird day
Jul. 9th, 2014 03:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
drwexIt's a weird day when multiple people take the time to thank me for being the voice of reason. You all who know me can stop laughing now. Any minute. I'll wait.
I've been posting a good deal in both![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
sunspiral's LJ and shadesong's LJ. I'm glad to be able to have discussions with both of them. This is where I stand:
- Judah is a self-admitted abuser and has a restraining order against him for domestic violence and other related offenses. As such, I do not want him at my house and I am probably not comfortable going to other parties where he is welcome. That might change in the future; or, maybe not. I'm in new territory here and the Magic 8 Ball is cloudy.
- My comfort is about me and my loved ones. It's not a standard for other private individuals to follow. I am not the boss of you (unless you're one of my kids and they have some vehement objections to my Boss status anyway).
- When I go to a party I expect to follow the hosts' rules. When people come to my parties I'd like them to follow my rules, which are often summarized as "don't piss off the hosts." Part of why Judah is not welcome is because I'm so angry at what he did. I want him to be banned from other events where I might attend because I have my visceral, fist-clenching furious reaction to imagining someone doing to my loved ones what he did to Shira.
- I recognize that my response to the situation is seated in a position of vast privilege, including white, able, cis-male, wealth privilege. I also don't know what to do with that, except try to keep it in mind when I write or speak.
- There are people I like, love, and respect, on all sides of this debate. I am struggling to understand how these people I respect have reasoned to the positions they hold. I think we have now a large rift in the circle of people I like and if people do not understand each other there is no hope for dialog. Because this is all about me, I feel like I want to understand all the sides first.
- I am currently using the theoretical basis of framing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences) ) to think about this. I believe we have a framing problem, not a Rashomon problem. In Rashomon, every witness tells their own version of events, and no two of them agree on all the facts. In this situation I think pretty much everyone agrees on the facts, but is using different framings to interpret those facts.
- I have a long and friendly relationship with Scott & Rachel. I have a much shorter acquaintanceship with Shira and even less so with Adam but I'd like to think that Shira and I are at least on friendly terms.
- I am intensely sad that this situation has now become a conflict between these households when I think that conflict was entirely avoidable. I see people responding to perceived attacks on each of these people, being protective of the people they love. I understand that, deeply. I continue to believe that this level of self- and other-protectiveness is preventing many people from recognizing the framing differences.
- We accuse each other of lies, deceptions, exaggerations, denials, etc. But I think these things are all distractions from the core issues. I care about how you treat the people who commit these violent acts; how you treat the people who are the victims of these acts; how you treat the people who have to deal with the consequences of these acts; and how you treat the people who are trying to navigate these unknown and shark-infested waters. I reject any formulation that says, "It's simple, just XYZ." It's not simple.
- I would like to be able to focus on the problems that having Judah in the social circle brings and how we can deal with that. Unfortunately the grounds have shifted and people are choosing up sides in a wholly unnecessary war. Perhaps I'm falling into a geek fallacy, but I also see this as an important test case. If we cannot find a way to work with each other - despite our different frameworks - to deal with an abuser and social gatherings then we have a pretty deep problem.
I've been posting a good deal in both
sunspiral's LJ and shadesong's LJ. I'm glad to be able to have discussions with both of them. This is where I stand:- Judah is a self-admitted abuser and has a restraining order against him for domestic violence and other related offenses. As such, I do not want him at my house and I am probably not comfortable going to other parties where he is welcome. That might change in the future; or, maybe not. I'm in new territory here and the Magic 8 Ball is cloudy.
- My comfort is about me and my loved ones. It's not a standard for other private individuals to follow. I am not the boss of you (unless you're one of my kids and they have some vehement objections to my Boss status anyway).
- When I go to a party I expect to follow the hosts' rules. When people come to my parties I'd like them to follow my rules, which are often summarized as "don't piss off the hosts." Part of why Judah is not welcome is because I'm so angry at what he did. I want him to be banned from other events where I might attend because I have my visceral, fist-clenching furious reaction to imagining someone doing to my loved ones what he did to Shira.
- I recognize that my response to the situation is seated in a position of vast privilege, including white, able, cis-male, wealth privilege. I also don't know what to do with that, except try to keep it in mind when I write or speak.
- There are people I like, love, and respect, on all sides of this debate. I am struggling to understand how these people I respect have reasoned to the positions they hold. I think we have now a large rift in the circle of people I like and if people do not understand each other there is no hope for dialog. Because this is all about me, I feel like I want to understand all the sides first.
- I am currently using the theoretical basis of framing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences) ) to think about this. I believe we have a framing problem, not a Rashomon problem. In Rashomon, every witness tells their own version of events, and no two of them agree on all the facts. In this situation I think pretty much everyone agrees on the facts, but is using different framings to interpret those facts.
- I have a long and friendly relationship with Scott & Rachel. I have a much shorter acquaintanceship with Shira and even less so with Adam but I'd like to think that Shira and I are at least on friendly terms.
- I am intensely sad that this situation has now become a conflict between these households when I think that conflict was entirely avoidable. I see people responding to perceived attacks on each of these people, being protective of the people they love. I understand that, deeply. I continue to believe that this level of self- and other-protectiveness is preventing many people from recognizing the framing differences.
- We accuse each other of lies, deceptions, exaggerations, denials, etc. But I think these things are all distractions from the core issues. I care about how you treat the people who commit these violent acts; how you treat the people who are the victims of these acts; how you treat the people who have to deal with the consequences of these acts; and how you treat the people who are trying to navigate these unknown and shark-infested waters. I reject any formulation that says, "It's simple, just XYZ." It's not simple.
- I would like to be able to focus on the problems that having Judah in the social circle brings and how we can deal with that. Unfortunately the grounds have shifted and people are choosing up sides in a wholly unnecessary war. Perhaps I'm falling into a geek fallacy, but I also see this as an important test case. If we cannot find a way to work with each other - despite our different frameworks - to deal with an abuser and social gatherings then we have a pretty deep problem.
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no subject
Date: 2014-07-12 11:26 pm (UTC)When you talk to
Maybe she does get a free pass. Yes, sometimes the victim's reactions will make the surrounding social situation harder to resolve, but that's just the way things are, and the surrounding social group needs to cope with that and make every effort to support the outlet she has made for herself. Our society silences too many women in too many ways to do anything else. Maybe she's doing some sub-optimal things, and maybe in the long term she'll learn from them, but that's for her to grapple with later.
I was only briefly involved in the community, and I drifted away quite a few years ago, but I'm sorry for all the pain and stress I've been seeing recently. Overall, I think your (
no subject
Date: 2014-07-13 01:48 am (UTC)When you talk to shadesong about how she "should realize how that narrative affects people", is that not you proscribing how she should express her anger about her rape and abuse?
In a word, no. I was talking about her narrative of the events around the BoS party. I'd have to back up and explain everything from the start to fill in that picture completely.
Maybe she does get a free pass. Yes, sometimes the victim's reactions will make the surrounding social situation harder to resolve, but that's just the way things are, and the surrounding social group needs to cope with that and make every effort to support the outlet she has made for herself.
That's one view, and you're certainly not alone in expressing it. Then there's another view that says, "You come to my house, drink my booze, eat my food, and then lecture me on how badly behaved I am." Which of us is rude in that situation? Which of us should cope with what?
No one (to my knowledge) has denied Song's speech in her fora (LJ and othewise) or in public spaces such as conventions. The question revolves around an incident at a private residence and one of the points I am pretty sure Song and I agree on is that we want the rules of these private spaces known in advance so we can make informed decisions about whether to be there.
Overall, I think your (drwex 's) influence on the discussion has been very positive, and I am hopeful that you will all find a positive way through and be stronger for the experience.
Thank you. I appreciate your taking the time to stop by and share your views.
no subject
Date: 2014-07-13 01:45 pm (UTC)The host needs to learn to cope if they want to host well. And the perspective here is totally in the wrong. Suffering rudeness is a trifle compared to dealing with the physical abuse and sexual assault and sexual harassment, and it is not rude to say you have been wronged. There is no equivalence here.
Yes, they can be told they are being bad hosts by people who ate their food if they are not doing a good job of looking out for the safety of their guests, and it is right and just to do so. Just because people like them does not mean they are not totally in the wrong and owe apologies for putting ego before the safety of their guests. Song has done nothing wrong--she should not be lectured on how she could be a better victim or how to better appeal to people who do not take sexual assault seriously enough.
no subject
Date: 2014-07-13 03:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-07-22 04:59 am (UTC)Those who have been harmed should be free to speak about that harm in any way they choose, but they must also accept that others will react to what is said. To insist that those who hear them must not be upset by what they're saying or how they're saying it, or must not express their hurt, anger, or fear, is completely divorced from reality and is denying the hearer's right to their own feelings.
no subject
Date: 2014-07-22 10:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-08-03 05:19 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-07-13 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-07-14 01:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-07-13 10:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-07-15 01:03 am (UTC)