It's a weird day

[drwex]

It's a weird day when multiple people take the time to thank me for being the voice of reason. You all who know me can stop laughing now. Any minute. I'll wait.

I've been posting a good deal in both sunspiral's LJ and shadesong's LJ. I'm glad to be able to have discussions with both of them. This is where I stand:

- Judah is a self-admitted abuser and has a restraining order against him for domestic violence and other related offenses. As such, I do not want him at my house and I am probably not comfortable going to other parties where he is welcome. That might change in the future; or, maybe not. I'm in new territory here and the Magic 8 Ball is cloudy.

- My comfort is about me and my loved ones. It's not a standard for other private individuals to follow. I am not the boss of you (unless you're one of my kids and they have some vehement objections to my Boss status anyway).

- When I go to a party I expect to follow the hosts' rules. When people come to my parties I'd like them to follow my rules, which are often summarized as "don't piss off the hosts." Part of why Judah is not welcome is because I'm so angry at what he did. I want him to be banned from other events where I might attend because I have my visceral, fist-clenching furious reaction to imagining someone doing to my loved ones what he did to Shira.

- I recognize that my response to the situation is seated in a position of vast privilege, including white, able, cis-male, wealth privilege. I also don't know what to do with that, except try to keep it in mind when I write or speak.

- There are people I like, love, and respect, on all sides of this debate. I am struggling to understand how these people I respect have reasoned to the positions they hold. I think we have now a large rift in the circle of people I like and if people do not understand each other there is no hope for dialog. Because this is all about me, I feel like I want to understand all the sides first.

- I am currently using the theoretical basis of framing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences) ) to think about this. I believe we have a framing problem, not a Rashomon problem. In Rashomon, every witness tells their own version of events, and no two of them agree on all the facts. In this situation I think pretty much everyone agrees on the facts, but is using different framings to interpret those facts.

- I have a long and friendly relationship with Scott & Rachel. I have a much shorter acquaintanceship with Shira and even less so with Adam but I'd like to think that Shira and I are at least on friendly terms.

- I am intensely sad that this situation has now become a conflict between these households when I think that conflict was entirely avoidable. I see people responding to perceived attacks on each of these people, being protective of the people they love. I understand that, deeply. I continue to believe that this level of self- and other-protectiveness is preventing many people from recognizing the framing differences.

- We accuse each other of lies, deceptions, exaggerations, denials, etc. But I think these things are all distractions from the core issues. I care about how you treat the people who commit these violent acts; how you treat the people who are the victims of these acts; how you treat the people who have to deal with the consequences of these acts; and how you treat the people who are trying to navigate these unknown and shark-infested waters. I reject any formulation that says, "It's simple, just XYZ." It's not simple.

- I would like to be able to focus on the problems that having Judah in the social circle brings and how we can deal with that. Unfortunately the grounds have shifted and people are choosing up sides in a wholly unnecessary war. Perhaps I'm falling into a geek fallacy, but I also see this as an important test case. If we cannot find a way to work with each other - despite our different frameworks - to deal with an abuser and social gatherings then we have a pretty deep problem.

Comments

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent post and I agree with you on all of it.

[chanaleh.livejournal.com]

I would like to "like" both this post and the fact that you, 'Song, made the first (supportive) comment. :-}

[rigel.livejournal.com]

Holy mother of Bob, thank you for this.

Just . . . yes. Yes, this. Yes to all of it. Thank you.

I'm nearly tempted to ask if I link to or repost (with attribution, natch) the whole of this, because it so strongly resonates with my feelings on the topic.

[drwex]

You may use this material as you see fit, either by link or repost. Attribution is nice, but not required.

[tigira.livejournal.com]

This is the first I've been able to see LJ for the last two days. I seem to have missed a lot, and I'm glad that the first post I saw was your "voice of reason."

Thank you.

[drwex]

You have missed a great deal. I assume you will, but if not you should read at least sunspiral's post with his rules addenda, and shadesong's response. Delving into the comment shitstorm on each of those is wholly optional, imo.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Thank you for saying this. I haven't been quite as engaged in it, and was in Alaska when the party happened, but what you have had to say has helped me understand.

[drwex]

I'm glad to know that. Thank you.

[davesmusictank.livejournal.com]

A truly engaging post and for that i have friended you.

[drwex]

Welcome and thanks. Are you local to MA such that we might meet up at some point?

[shades-of-nyx.livejournal.com]

Yup, you're the sane one here!

[drwex]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not, but I'll choose to believe serious and say "thank you." It's a weird position to be in.

[swashbucklr]

Thanks for writing this.

[drwex]

You're welcome. Thank you for taking a moment to let me know you'd read it.

[hammercock.livejournal.com]

Joining the chorus of thanks for writing and sharing this, and yeah, I agree with all of it.

[drwex]

Thanks, that's good to know.

[trowa-barton.livejournal.com]

Logical

[drwex]

That's a funny comment because so much of my response to this has been emotional. I talked about my emotional response to Judah, but there are also emotions of wanting to protect my friend(s) and despair at watching people divide and fall away from each other.

People have said to me that conflicts like these highlight who one's friends truly are and I'm glad people take the time to comment on what I write.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

Watching from DC it has been kinda astonishing and I completely agree with you re framing

[drwex]

Thanks hon. I've also been reading your posts about shiva and dealing with the aftermath. I'm glad you have the time to read other things as well and I would give you hugs and a shoulder of support if I could.

[whitebird.livejournal.com]

I've been impressed with your writing and commentary on this issue, but not surprised.

[drwex]

Thank you.

[mzrowan.livejournal.com]

To add some thinking to the framing issue: it seems to me like both sides are looking at this incident from their side not as a one-off, but as a threat to their ongoing life(style) -- but they're both thinking of it as a one-off for the *other* side.

[drwex]

That's very insightful, thank you. My mental model included the "threat" notion - I have an open comment hanging with Song asking her about whether she views something as threatening to her - but I had missed out on the aspect of ongoing versus one-off as a possible view difference among the contributors.

[aelscha.livejournal.com]

I've been following this although not commenting (I think I'm on the outskirts of the community that's most centrally affected), and I've also really appreciated your attempts to understand why totally reasonable people are so at odds here. It's definitely clarified some of my thinking.

[drwex]

Thank you. If you'd like to share more of your thoughts please feel free.

[felisdemens.livejournal.com]

This is extremely cogent and well communicated.

[drwex]

Thanks!

[signsoflife.livejournal.com]

Wex, I basically wound up reading your recent post on the matter by accident. I found it much more bearable than the main thread, and I was impressed by the quality and tone of your post and the difficult comment threads it spawned.

I noticed that you were struggling with "tone argument" issues -- I think I have some observations that may be useful to you, if you're up for that kind of feedback right now.

[drwex]

Thank you; I appreciate you taking the time to read what I've written and if you have time to help me (to put it bluntly) screw up less boy that would be great.

I have trained as a moderator and facilitator - at one point I thought I might make some money helping with arbitration disputes. It affects how I think and how I hear peoples' tone. Also, see above about privilege. So, yeah, I need help.

[(Anonymous)]

Hi. I don't know you, or anyone involved (I wandered in because this has all hit the front page of LJ) but I did want to add to the thanks for trying to be a moderating voice in the whole affair. It's a rare enough behaviour these days and it should be applauded when seen.

[drwex]

Thank you, anonymous. It's a little scary to think our group social challenges are the most interesting things happening on LJ.

[taura-g.livejournal.com]

Still reading ... just so you know.

[mizarchivist]

Pebble

[miss-chance.livejournal.com]

You know, Wex, five years ago I might have shared your surprise at your role as a voice of reason. These days, not so surprising.

*hug*

[drwex]

You are kind to say so and that gave me a smile. Thank you.

[ron_newman]

I'm reading all of this, at shadesong's suggestion, but I don't have anything to add right now that hasn't already been said better by either drwex or other folks here.

I would like to see a gradual re-meeting of the minds between the now-opposing participants.

[archangelwells.livejournal.com]

1) Thank you for writing this. You seem to have a useful framing of the situation.

2) I see a third group, which potentially seems to fall more on 'Song's side of things, but many of the third group say they have little/no personal knowledge of 'Song. That third group being:
"I am responding emotionally to finding out that a space I thought was safe, and I thought was somewhere threats would be handled appropriately, is not somewhere that is safe *for me* and where threats *to me* will be handled in a way that makes *me feel safe*."

I have to say that, despite my ongoing friendship and support of 'Song, I fall more strongly into that group than I do into a "'Song v. Scott" narrative. I have never been to one of these parties because I don't know the hosts well - I've met them at a couple cons, and I think I gave them my email, but I don't know them well. These are large parties, and I know my limits in social situations, and I don't trust large gatherings. At a con, I have (in theory) a way to report, and a process that will (again, in theory) protect me. I don't have that at a private party, especially as someone the hosts *don't* know well. What I've gotten from Scott's responses is that the hosts will side with people they like over people they are less familiar with. I agree with you that the rule of "don't piss off the hosts" is the salient one for Scott and Rachel, and that is not one that I personally feel safe attending their parties under.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I agree, and would count myself in that third group, from another direction. I will miss that big house and its denizens, with whom I was once so cheerfully familiar, but I don't think I can in good conscience attend or recommend friends from other social circles any more.

[marius23.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to add my echo that I very much appreciate the time and effort you've put into providing diplomacy to help keep this socially conflict from turning into, as you put it, "a wholly unnecessary war." In particular, I appreciate having a place that feels like a very serious but still calm conversation rather than a "he said, she said" shouting match. Thank you.

[drwex]

Thank you. I encourage you to participate in the conversation as you feel is safe and appropriate.

[oneagain.livejournal.com]

*Adding my praise to the overall tone of the thread and the care given it, adding my prayers that this rift can eventually be healed*

[drwex]

Thank you.

[mud-puppy.livejournal.com]

I had no idea any of this was or did happen until this morning. I've been so out of the social sphere taking care of an adorable toddler :P I hope it's ok for me to comment here since I wasn't directly involved, but I just had to say two things.

First, I want to say Wex that you deserve a freaking medal for putting yourself out there and like this. I haven't read all of the various posts, comments and re-posts.. etc.. but from what I have read, you are one of the few people who has kept your cool and kept people communicating in a respectful and thoughtful way.

Second, while I see myself on the fringe of the community/communities here, I am very sad to see the community fracture again. I suppose that's the ebb and flow of community, but I still find it sad to witness.

Anyways, thank you for all you've done.

[drwex]

Welcome to the discussion. It has certainly been an all-consuming thing for those who are involved, but we're well aware that this is our pocket universe and not the entirety of the world. Some of us even manage to do jobs while this is going on :)

Thank you for the kind words. There's more to be said about what and why and the split within the community but that's going to take more thoughts for me to formulate. Right now I want to make space for others to say what they feel needs saying.

[achinhibitor.livejournal.com]

I think we have now a large rift in the circle of people

It's only a rift if we demand that others agree with us.

I care about how you treat the people who commit these violent acts; how you treat the people who are the victims of these acts; how you treat the people who have to deal with the consequences of these acts; and how you treat the people who are trying to navigate these unknown and shark-infested waters.

What standards do you demand of others in regard to how they treat [etc.]? What sanctions do you impose on others who do not meet your standards? That is, is this "I care" simply a matter of you emotionally responding, or is it a matter of policing?

[drwex]

I'm not demanding anything - remember the part where I say I'm not the boss of you and that my standards are for me.

There's certainly a very large emotional component to this. I have a lot of reactions, and am sorting through them as best I can. The notion of me policing pretty much anything past my property line is pretty funny. However, I do host events and I need to think about how I do that. Likewise, I have to evaluate whether I want to go to others' events.