For the Firefly nerds

[drwex]

At Diesel last night a conversation along the following lines broke out: Would Firefly pass the Dykes to Watch Out For test?

Briefly stated, the test states that a book/show/movie should:
1. Contain more than one female character;
2. The female characters should converse; (*)
3. The topic should be something other than the men. (**)

(*) None of us remembered whether the test formulation forbade men to be present. My personal sense was that it was OK for the men to be around so long as the focus of the conversation was the two or more women.

(**) There was also some debate as to whether the test excluded conversations about men in general or only about specific men. So, clearly, a conversation between Zoe and Kaylee about Mal's military past wouldn't qualify. However, I assert that Kaylee and Inara talking about how to get Kaylee some booty does qualify. Since it's not about a specific man, but rather about the desires of one of the women.

There's a side question as to whether the test requires that the conversation be between two of the main characters. For example, in Our Mrs. Reynolds there's a great scene between "Saffron" and Inara that starts out as sob story, segues rapidly through seduction and into a quick fight. I don't remember what they talk about, though.

Jon asserted (and I'd agree) that if you're going to take a feminist view of literature then you have to admit that women can play any role, including villain(ess). But even thought the character reappears, she's not a "regular." So that doesn't address the core question.

So, for those of you who've seen the episodes more than I, or whose memories are better, give an example conversation that passes the test. This ought not to be so hard as it is being to me.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

The test should be talking about men or a man. Two women should be talking about something other than"men".
Men manage to do it in movies all the time

http://www.seejane.org

[ciani.livejournal.com]

There was the ep where Inara had a female client visit her on Serenity. I believe Inara and Kaylee later had a conversation about it, but I can't remember for sure. However, Inara and her client definitely seemed to get it on. I wish I could remember if they really did have a conversation about it. I thought they did.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

I don't recall whether Inara and Kaylee talked about this, but Inara and the client certainly did - they talked about just wanting to relax and be themselves (an entirely daft conversation in context, seeing as Inara was being paid for her participation in just-us-girls-letting-our-hair-down stuff).

[tisana.livejournal.com]

"there's a great scene between "Saffron" and Inara"

Ooh, that was a good scene. Inara realizes what Saffron is trying to do, starts to fall for it, then says, "Ooh. You're good."
"Thanks."
"Academy trained?"

...for just a few seconds, they're geeking about manipulation techniques, it's great.

I don't know if Firefly passes the test, but then, I've seen fewer than 10 episodes. However, it certainly has strong female role models in it, which is more than you can say for much TV lately.

[drwex]

Right. There's no doubt about Joss' ability to create good strong female role models. See his Equality Now speech if you haven't already: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYaczoJMRhs

Given that, it's even MORE surprising how difficult it is to say whether or not Firefly passes the test.

I Haven't Seen The Show

[daurdabla.livejournal.com]

(what can I say? No cable, and precious little other reception), but here (http://alisonbechdel.blogspot.com/2005/08/rule.html) is the link to the pertinent cartoon.

Whether the subject cannot include men in general is ambiguous, given that the statement is "talk to each other about something besides a man."

Re: I Haven't Seen The Show

[drwex]

Right, it's the "a man" phrase that causes me to think Kaylee/Inara qualifies. Later on, when she's specifically mooning over the doc, that doesn't count.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

I strongly disagree on whether conversations about how to get Kaylee laid qualify. Yeah, they're about the desires of a woman, but they're about the desires of a woman to be attractive to men. I love the Kaylee/Inara interactions, but they don't qualify.

I do think, however, that it's okay for men to be around.

[drwex]

Ah, see, I don't think Kaylee's particularly concerned about being attractive to men. Witness her defense of that godawful dress. It's not about someone else's definition of attractiveness - it's about "How does Kaylee get what Kaylee wants" where wants include getting laid, fancy clothes, respect from the captain, spare parts for her engine, and eventually one specific man.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

Kaylee does not defend the godawful dress. Defense would imply that she thought something was wrong with it. Kaylee truly and sincerely believes that the lampshade she wears to the party is beautiful. It is the dress of her dreams, and because she's a grease monkey reared on a prairie planet, she has not the faintest idea how little fashion sense she has or how much of a train wreck that thing is.

In The Train Job, when Inara is brushing Kaylee's hair, she volunteers to put it up specifically because Simon might like it. Which is indeed about someone else's definition of attractiveness.

[drwex]

I bow to your superior memory for the details.

[catya.livejournal.com]

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=34585797&size=l :)

[drwex]

that wants me to do some sort of signing in. What's up?

[catya.livejournal.com]

Yeah, flickr is like that - if you have a yahoo login you can use that

[drwex]

And if I don't?

[gentlescholar.livejournal.com]

I don't recall Zoe chatting with the other women much. She's usually bantering with her husband or Mal.
River is not exactly your sequitur kind of lady, and most of her interactions are just with Simon anyway.
That leaves Kaylee and Inara, of the four main female characters. So it would have to be those two, and, well, Inara specializes in "people" and Kaylee is, well, Kaylee, who specializes in "engines" "sweetness" and "wanting men, eg Simon." I don't think Inara ever geeked about engines with Kaylee. And the majority of other people on board are men.

So there might not ever be such a conversation between the main characters, though there easily could have been, if say Zoe and Kaylee planned a caper, or Inara asked Zoe about the odds on a fight, or River went temporarily sane enough to ask one of the women about their background, or some such. I can easily imagine such a conversation, but I'm not sure there ever was one.

[ricevermicelli.livejournal.com]

River and Kaylee had at least one conversation - over jacks - that had potential, but they were talking about boys.

There are a number of occasions when Zoe says reassuring things to Kaylee, although those also reference men.

Zoe tells Kaylee the story of the grenade-loaded apples in "War Stories", which involves men, but which is not about them (it's about explosives, and Zoe's eating habits).

In "Safe", Kaylee and Inara discuss the artifacts available for sale on border planets ("It looks like it was made by somebody who yearned to see a swan.")

I'd have to go back and check, but I think there's a point where River-as-ship reassures Kaylee and gives her instructions during "Objects in Space".

The mean girls in "Shindig" talk to Kaylee about dresses.

That's all I got.

[drwex]

Damn you're good. I was trying to remember which episode has Mal and Wash being kidnapped and tortured. Zoe ends up leading the Serenity crew and I'm pretty sure has some good exchanges with both Kaylee and Zoe. What I can't recall is whether these are "I'm in charge now" conversations - which would qualify - or whether they're about (not) rescuing the boys, which would NOT qualify.

[okelle.livejournal.com]

Alas, I don't think even the "lesbian" scenes in Firefly really pass this test. Maybe a few of the moments when River and Kaylee are playing around. "There's not a force in the 'verse that can stop me."

[drwex]

Yeah, that exchange was mentioned but I don't recall it well enough right now.

(P.S. next time we're in the same physical space, please come up and say "Hi, I'm 'okelle' on LJ" to me?)

[okelle.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I posted without reading the other comments. I don't think a conversation along the lines of "sometimes I like to have sex with women because it's a lot less pressure than sex with men" really cuts it ;-)

PS: I'd love to, but I'm not sure I know who you are! Email me at my username at gmail so we can figure it out!

[mizarchivist]

When one only has the first few chapters of a long book to judge from, The Fangirl says they had the potential to get out of the probationary place if we'd seen more.

Also, Kaylee and Inara didn't talk about the interaction with the Councilor during that episode. They were too busy shooting up Niska's.

[drwex]

Mm, while I take your point about Joss evolving things over long times I think the work has to stand on its own. I think the Serenity movie _definitely_ fails the test.

[sconstant.livejournal.com]

What's hysterical is that I was looking for the definitive rule a few weeks ago, found it on the old DTWOF blog, and the discussion includes both Firefly and Serenity.

http://alisonbechdel.blogspot.com/2005/08/rule.html

[quezz.livejournal.com]

Do the tag games Kayley and River play on Serenity count? If so, there's a conversation that has nothing to do with men.

I'm debating as to whether Firefly can count. You know what does though (and this scares me)?

Cleopatra 2525

Wonder if that made the list?

[rdhdsnippet.livejournal.com]

I have not one useful thing to add, and just wish to say that this conversation has made me want to re-watch Firefly, which, given my general malaise regarding anything on a screen, is surprising. :o)

Oh, and that I desperately want to go to Diesel sometime. *lol*

[drwex]

These are both solvable problems, you know. Not only are there many on our mutual flists who'd be happy to push Firefly DVDs at you, there are even more who'd be quite happy to see you and family venture up this-a-way for a non-convention social vacation.

[rdhdsnippet.livejournal.com]

Well, I actually own the Firefly DVDs.

And actually I've been in negotiations with a certain lovely lady about heading up that-a-way for a visit towards the end of the summer/early autumn. :o)