Cultures of Sadness (first in an intermittent series)

[drwex]

I'm posting this here in part to remind myself to write it more fully later. However, commentary is open and welcome.

Adults repress joy. Children have the freedom to express it, but we try to repress it, in part to protect ourselves from being hurt. We fear the consequences of expressing anger, or sexual feelings. We are afraid that if we let ourselves love freely we'll be opening ourselves up for tremendous hurt. Joy and expressions of love are therefore repressed.

LJ creates/enables/encourages (I'm not sure which, maybe all) a culture of sadness. Observation: when a friend posts about her illness or depression or unhappiness, she receives many encouraging comments. The readers chime in, and participate in the expression, validating the feelings of sadness or depression. Observation: when a friend posts about his happiness, his readers complain and even stop reading his journal. Observation: when a friend posts about her sexual feelings, she is expected to label it "TMI" and put it behind a cut, lest someone be offended.

The social norm is that feelings of sadness or depression are supported; feelings of joy, sexuality, happiness are ignored, trivialized, or even draw negative feedback. I do not think this is unique to LJ; I think there are many Cultures of Sadness in modern life. I just happen to be participating in this one with roughly 120 of my closest friends.

Comments

[sandhawke.livejournal.com]

Don't you have friends who say "congradulations" or "wow" or "go you!" when you write about a success?

and isn't the response to sadness usually a cheering one?

I find the best responses are to particularly funny or interesting postings, not emotional ones. (although interesting+emotional is probably the most response-provoking.)

[sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com]

Yes people write "go you" and such in response to a succinctly worded post about success. If it's anything long it rarely gets that sort of comment. I think brevity is also an issue as people's friends lists get longer

[(Anonymous)]

Some folk do remark in passing. It does not generally have the level of conversation of negative-emotion postings.

That said, I'm not particularly interested in focusing on the phenomenon in LJ, so much as in the culture within which LJ sits.

[srl.livejournal.com]

I see the phenomenon you're talking about, and I think I get your intent about such attitudes being self-reinforcing. I've got a few alternate observations, though:

1. Casual social interactions of all sorts between moderately-close people who happen to meet. "How's it going?" "Fine." That is, there are a number of face-to-face social contexts in which expressing discontent, depression, stress, or anger are... inappropriate or seen as unwarrantedly drawing attention to oneself.

2. One of the behaviors clinically-depressed people often do is to self-isolate. Posting to LJ in such contexts can be an attempt to keep from falling off the social map. Saying "I'm still here and I'm having a hard time" /in an online context/ can be a way for people to express things to their friends that they may not be able to politely say in public.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Good observations, especially #2

[drwex]

I agree with both of your observations, but I feel they are aside from the points I'm starting ot sketch.

[coraline]

obviously, our friendslists overlap but aren't congruent, but i've certainly seen lots of supportive happy "i love hearing about how happy you are" comments in my journal, and my friendslist doesn't generally tend to be filled with woe-is-me. and i was actually looking through archives last night and noticed (independantly of this post) that there were many fewer comments in my ranty/sad posts than in my posts which were happy or interesting for some other reason. certainly people give lots of hugs when people say they are down for whatever reason, but that's not that common.

the sex=TMI thing i think of on a different axis, having to do with our culture's specific fucked-up-ness WRT sex.

[coraline]

just for curiousity, i figured i'd look back at my recent journal entries... the ones with the most comments are:
- "happy birthday to me"
- a post about implied sexual-TMI ("we broke the bed")
- a micro-rant on the clothing industry
- bemused reflections on being older than one had realized

[rmd.livejournal.com]

Observation: when a friend posts about his happiness, his readers complain and even stop reading his journal.

this does not match my observations.

[drwex]

I understand that and I appreciate your taking the time to respond. As I noted elsewhere in the comments, the three specific examples I cited came from three real people.

[aroraborealis.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, this doesn't reflect my experience.

Off Topic

[pancua.livejournal.com]

Icon Love! That is a great pic! =)

Sex

[mizarchivist]

If it were me writing about explicit sexual information (and it wouldn't be likely given my "would I be comfortable with my mother reading this in my journal" limitation) I would do so not because I'd be ashamed of what I did or that I fear offending so much as
1. some people may not be in the mood to read it. I'm at work when I read most often and don't generally need that sort of distraction
2. having something explicit on the screen for the audience without that layer may not be wise if you have people who read over your shoulder
3. or may just not be everyone's kink- so perhaps offend, but sometimes I just don't want to know what gets my friends off. Yay they are, but not what color the midget's leiderhosen was.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

Re: Sex

[(Anonymous)]

Nice comment title. So, what I hear you saying is that, for reasons you consider well and sufficient, you fear some consequences of sexual expression. Fear is not shame, however. I doubt any of my near social circle would be willing to admit to actual shame over their sexual feelings. You dislike the sexual expressions of others.

Reflexively, I share your viewpoint. I am re-examining this reflex, among others.

[keyne.livejournal.com]

Observation: when a friend posts about his happiness, his readers complain and even stop reading his journal. Observation: when a friend posts about her sexual feelings, she is expected to label it "TMI" and put it behind a cut, lest someone be offended.

We have very different friendslists, then.

[drwex]

Actually, our flists overlap a lot. All three of the examples I gave are real, and all come from people you know in rl and on LJ. It was partly the closeness in time of these three observations that led me to want to jot this note down so I'd remember it later.

My $0.02 worth

[pancua.livejournal.com]

I have seem some of what you are talking about, the most common excuse being that someone's boss/co-worker may see it. But I have also seen many people congratulate others when something good is going on in their lives.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

My experience is not like yours at all. My happiest posts get the most replies (albeit one-liners, e.g. my new job, cute baby rat photos etc.)

Sad posts... it really varies. Over time, I find myself having to "shout" more in a sad post if I want anyone to pay attention.

Posts about social dilemmas often get really interesting discussions going. E.g. one person on my flist (I'm not sure if he is on yours) posted about gay marriage -- not just random thoughts, but how someone being radically opposed to it affects him personally, since he is gay, and some of the ethical issues of friendship or acquaintanceship with people who have very different views than one's own. He made two or three posts and there were about 150 comments.

Putting sexual content under a cut is really just good manners IMHO. Many people do read LJ at work, or when their kids/their mother/other people who wouldn't understand are nearby. Same goes for gory photos, and anything else that could be a "shock."

[drwex]

Putting sexual content under a cut is really just good manners IMHO. Many people do read LJ at work, or when their kids/their mother/other people who wouldn't understand are nearby. Same goes for gory photos, and anything else that could be a "shock."

I do not consider all sexual or shocking expression equivalent. I am referring here to the honest expression by one person of sexual feelings either in general, or for/to another specific person.

[harlequinaide.livejournal.com]

My impulse is to agree with you. But, then, it usually is. I've made this observation myself, in the past. But I don't think that the LJ portion of it is as universal as I thought. To check, I went back over my recent posts. The ones with the most comments are all movie reviews and my asinine "New Orleans Deserved It" post. Clearly, people will rise to my inflamitory rhetoric, occasionally. But the posts about being unhappy in LA got fewer comments than those.

I think that LJ encourages processing. For some people, this leads to a spiral into deeper depression. For some, this leads to improvement. That said, I've never had anyone stop reading me because I was happy. I have driven readers away with my relentless whining, at times.

[drwex]

I don't want to expend too much energy on the medium, as opposed to the underlying behavior. However, one might ask why we're involved in so much negative (sadness-oriented) processing. Is intellectualizing about it a way to distance ourselves from the feelings of sadness themselves? And if so, does encouraging/facilitating the processing itself become a form of avoiding dealing?

"Oh, my friend is sad again, let's help him process that out so we don't have to confront his tears, which are painful and embarrassing, as well as our own responsive feelings of helplessness or anger at him for continuing to be sad."

[tigira.livejournal.com]

Ah, looks like it's time to re-start the "two good things" each day habit.

Some friends of mine and I would post at least two good things in our journal each day. Some days it was more difficult than others, but it was a reminder that there were a lot of good things around.

[drwex]

Interesting. I have a knee-jerk reflex against this kind of enforced exercise, but then I stop and realize that one way to change one's culture is to practice different habits within that cultural context.

hmmmm

[dlusionlvr.livejournal.com]

LJ creates/enables/encourages (I'm not sure which, maybe all) a culture of sadness. Observation: when a friend posts about her illness or depression or unhappiness, she receives many encouraging comments. The readers chime in, and participate in the expression, validating the feelings of sadness or depression. Observation: when a friend posts about his happiness, his readers complain and even stop reading his journal. Observation: when a friend posts about her sexual feelings, she is expected to label it "TMI" and put it behind a cut, lest someone be offended.

Hmm... weird. In my lj, I think the encouraging comments come from the fact that my friends truly care about me and that they are actually encouraging joy. They're showing support during an hour of need and encouraging me to continue being positive and finding joy even during a hard time. Althoug I do see how some people must perpetuate a constant state of drama because they identity so much that they need their friends to constantly be gratifying them.

As far as ceasing to read a cheery journal, I find myself practicing the contrary. I can't seem to constantly read people's journals who never actually bother taking action about changing their negative state. Not that there's anything wrong with writing these things in a journal, and I most certainly don't expect anyone to put it behind a cut. The only stuff I'd enjoy, not demand, to see behind a cut is pages long stuff about how, "today I went to the mall and..." Which, I guess I should practice what I preach but, whatever, people don't have to read my blather. It's there for my benefit and should others choose to participate in it, great.

I don't feel I'm ignoring positive feelings, and sometimes I do comment on them. But a lot of the times when I'm commenting on someone's hard day, it's more of a "this person seems like they need a little support." When they're having a good day, it doesn't seem like they need my support so much.

Re: hmmmm

[drwex]

a lot of the times when I'm commenting on someone's hard day, it's more of a "this person seems like they need a little support." When they're having a good day, it doesn't seem like they need my support so much.

I think this is a reason many people would agree with, and it was my thought as well. So, the question is, if we don't engage with others' expressions of joy to the same depth and degree that we do with their expressions of sorrow, are we in effect sloughing off, or denigrating their joy? Why don't we help them "process" - as harlequinade puts it - their joy the way we help them process their sorrow?

[wispfox.livejournal.com]

Hmm.

I tend to get a fair amount of replies - indeed usually a larger number - to posts which are silly.

And quite a few to posts which are happy. So I'm not sure I'm seeing the same LJ that you are.

Sure, I get support if I post when I'm unhappy, but that's _also_ what friends do.

And I put my sexual stuff in a specific filter because _I_ want to, because I don't think everyone reading me either wants to see it or is someone I would want to see it. Unlike joy and silliness, being sexual beyond simple things like kissing is generally very private, for me. So I filter it.

I cut things because of length, not because of content, unless I believe the content might be triggering or difficult for someone to read without warning.

Just some datapoints that I'm not sure agree with yours.

Most of the in depths comments I get are in response to me digging into my brain, which can be about happy things as much as about unhappy things, but which is usually about neither one. It's simply digging into how I work.

[drwex]

Thank you for sharing your data points.

[dpolicar]

I share your observation 1 and 3, mostly.
I've never observed 2.
I've observed friends posting about happiness and receiving encouraging/validating comments.
I've observed friends posting about sadness (especially medical but also divorces, family troubles, etc) feeling obliged to label it TMI behind a cut.

[drwex]

Thank you, also, for sharing your experience. Do you wish to share your view on the role LJ plays in this vis-a-vis the culture at large?

[shadesong.livejournal.com]

Sadness: 100% accurate. I find myself, when I do a health-vent, saying "no net-*hug*s", because *hug*s are insipid and content-free.

when a friend posts about his happiness, his readers complain and even stop reading his journal.

Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen this happen. I'm silly and happy a lot in my LJ, and if I lose readers, it's generally because I post too often, not because I'm talking a lot about how much my kid rocks (people seem to really like happy Elayna stories, actually).

when a friend posts about her sexual feelings, she is expected to label it "TMI" and put it behind a cut, lest someone be offended.

Hm.

Hm, I say.

I don't cut/filter all of the sexual content in my LJ. It's obvious to the most casual reader of my public posts that I enjoy sex quite a lot - also that I am kinky and poly and yay sex! *ahem* Yes.

I do filter very explicit things - detailed descriptions and photos - but that's because I have *lots* of people reading me. I don't know most of them all that well. And I'm fine with saying publicly that I had wonderful sex last night, and even what toys I used, but I'm just personally not comfortable with 800+ people seeing a detailed writeup of "and then he...".

(The other reason for the filtration: I have people reading me who see me as a big sister figure. farren would run screaming if he knew anything more than he already does. He already knows a bit more than he probably wants to. *laugh*)

As for cut-tags and "TMI" - I don't personally consider anything TMI. But I know that some things can be TMI for others. I tend to cut-tag detailed posts if, say, my partner's other partner is on my sexfilter and might not want to read said posts, or their friends or roommates or whatever. I also cut-tag when anything edgy's involved. And I slap a detailed label on the cut-tag - a typical one might say "Tom: caning, knifeplay, breathplay". So if someone is triggery about knives, or someone doesn't want to think about Tom That Way, they don't have to read it. *shrug*

(Want to be on the sexfilter? *laugh*)

But I do post a lot of sexual stuff openly. And I've never felt that cut-tagging, filtering, hiding it was expected of me. It's pretty clear that I'm a very sex-positive person, and if people really really don't want to hear about sexual feelings, they probably won't have friended me in the first place. :)

[drwex]

If you would like to put me on the sexfilter, then sure, I'll read it.

I agree that the case I cited, of someone publicly signing off another's friends list because too much happy my-life-is-wonderful stuff was posted is an extreme case. But it really did happen, and I've seen more than a few people self-censor against posting "too much happy stuff".

Repression of Joy

[hlmt.livejournal.com]

Interesting observation, and one that I think is correct. However, repression of sadness is also the polite societal norm. And the hiding of feelings is equally normative, which leads to the automatic street greeting "Hi! How are ya?" [speaker doesn't really care] "Oh, fine" [responder isn't about to take the time to be introspective and let it all hang out].

But, wrt joy:
I remember being in class, in Switzerland, when I was about 9 or 10, and looking up and seeing snow falling. I jumped up and cried "It's snowing!" and had a big grin on my face... and got my mouth washed out with castor oil as a result.

It is extremely characteristic of my child/Daddy persona that I am joyful, innocently so. I can also be grief-stricken at the drop of a hat, too.

I think the suppression of strong emotions is likely a protective mechanism, since we are so vulnerable at the extremes...

Re: Repression of Joy

[drwex]

repression of sadness is also the polite societal norm

It has been the norm, and in much of the culture still is. However, at least within this extended social group (and I think much of blue America) it's become normal and accepted to talk about one's depression and which SSRI one is taking this week. People have conversations about this stuff all the time, when they don't have similar conversations about how hot they find their bosses or what brand of lube they use for anal sex.
(Sex Grease, thank you for asking - recommended to me by the friendly dykes at Grand Opening)

Sorry to hear about your Swiss school story. I remember your strong emotions fondly, and thinking of you still brings me joy :)

Case in point

[sweetmmeblue.livejournal.com]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/heinleinfan/182388.html?thread=684148&style=mine#t684148

A friend posts her happiness, I share in it, and I get told "Happy people are weird."

What's wrong with being happy?

Re: Case in point

[hlmt.livejournal.com]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being happy, and perhaps that's not even what s/he was saying--just that s/he is not happy, so your & the original poster's happiness are so out of her normal realm of behaving that it's weird to him/her? I.e., not that -you're- weird, but that the very thought of being able to be so happy is weird... make sense?

[slfisher.livejournal.com]

I haven't noticed it so much in LJ, and personally, there's one person I specifically friended because I really liked her happy attitude despite adversity and another person I think about defriending because their life seems to be full of drama. However, I have definitely noticed this phenomenon in other forums, and even in real life -- that sad people get more attention than happy people.

There was one relationship I was in where my partner was sad and so he got all the attention from our friends, and I found myself becoming more and more sad in an attempt to compete for some of the attention. This did not seem healthy to me.

[drwex]

No, that's not at all healthy, and it leads around to the notion that this is an _adolescent_ way of behaving. I'll probably jot another note about that.

[heinleinfan.livejournal.com]

Want to comment. Tired/brain fried/running in circles happily decompressing right now though. It's kind of that feeling I used to get working retail. Right about January 20th the crowds would finally stop and then it was like...Um...What do I do now? And the entire store staff would be completely unproductive for a couple of weeks because there was not *enough* to do.

Heh.

See, that just made no sense, I'm rambling.

At any rate, maybe this evening or tomorrow I will be able to coherently discuss.

"I'd rather be happy than right"

[sunstealer.livejournal.com]

Thinking "out loud" here. In many crowds/social groups a person's expressions of happiness and sadness are taken as barometers of a person's naivety vs. their wisdom, as in "No one can be really happy if they pay attention to politics/environment/education etc. and if they're happy they're either deluded or ignorant" I think happiness has become linked with naivety in many instances, with an inability to cope with things as they are. Sadness would conversely indicate that you have accurately apprehended the true nature of things and are therefore wise. While there is some truth to that, Coleridge's famous quote comes to mind-

"He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man
He rose the morrow morn."

I subscribed to that view for a long time, that happiness equaled an annoying and childish naivety to be avoided and that expressions of sadness were more apt and grown up. That is, until I got tired of being sad and miserable all the damn time, it didn't seem to accomplish anything that I thought it might. I didn't feel wiser, cooler or anything like that.

I'm not sure LJ directly enables sadness and I think that expressions of support for the sad party are fully in order most of the time. LJ does encourage a culture of melodrama most certainly and sadness makes super melodrama. LJ is, in my opinion, a fairly adolescent communication tool and is therefore prone to many of the pitfalls and lazy behaviors that have been mentioned above already. I myself tend to limit most posting to matter of fact announcements, updates and so forth.
Though...there's nothing written to say that a public forum composed of people who are ostensibly your friends HAS to be adolescent is there...hmm.

Thinking out loud as I said. Sorry if I wandered too far off topic. I may revise, revisit or recant at any minute :)
Must go off and muse in a corner now...

Re: "I'd rather be happy than right"

[drwex]

This is a good point, and one I hadn't considered. My off-the-cuff response is that the "no one can be happy" response may be true but it confuses the personal and political/social levels of happiness. In particular, I can be thorougly sad and disgusted by our present administration and yet do the dance of absolute glee at my childrens' cuteness.

I _think_ both of these are adult responses.